Most excellent Peter Tea blog post about summer work on Maples!

[MichaelS]

No One has answered this question from post #166

''Also, if removing the competition springing from along the branch helps to thicken it, why defoliate the secondary growth on the branch and not remove them completely?
Either they slow the thickening or they don't which one is it?''

Come on @Adair M @papymandarin, @Riversedgebonsai. You guys claim to understand the process, what's the answer?

 

[Adair M]

No One has answered this question from post #166

''Also, if removing the competition springing from along the branch helps to thicken it, why defoliate the secondary growth on the branch and not remove them completely?
Either they slow the thickening or they don't which one is it?''

Come on @Adair M @papymandarin, @Riversedgebonsai. You guys claim to understand the process, what's the answer?

Actually, I think the secondary growth is removed.

 

[MichaelS]

Actually, I think the secondary growth is removed.

Well you'd be wrong. You're not getting out that easy! Go back and see. He has defoliated the small branches anlong that branch, not removed them. (where I marked ''year 2 or 3''

 

[Dav4]

Holy crap, this thread has legs. My 2 cents... this forum is better off when every body posts their own crap and creates and updates their own progression threads.......... and this forum is better off when people post links to articles written by professionals or experienced hobbyists from all over concerning everything bonsai related. There are many, many ways to get from point a to point b, and some are better then others... most of the time. Ultimately, knowledge is power. I don't have time to comb through 30 blogs every day looking for that nugget, so if Adair thinks something written be Peter Tea is worth reading, I'll definitely take the time to read it and decide if the information garnered there is something I might use in my back yard. Going to bed now... carry on.

 

[Smoke]

That video was made in the 1980’s. That technique isn’t used any more.

By who..... who isn't using that anymore?

Are those still using it wrong in your opinion?

Thats the problem here...your always right and everyone else is always wrong. This is bonsainut not bonsaiAdair. Everyone is entitled to work on the trees as they see fit. Post whatever you want to and let people make up their own minds...not try and force it down their throat. You think this is CNN, I'll decide what is right, not you. This is not Bonsai study group, the Boon appreciation forum.... I have tremendous respect for Boon and know him quite personally for many years before you knew him..BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE DOES, and contrary to popular belief "He" is OK with that....but it seems that some SOB's are not. I know you think your helping...but maybe you need to rethink my offer on posting some of your own work here. Some progressions showing all that you have talked about for the last however many years it's been. Post it up, if you got it. If you don't thats ok too. There are many here that can't do that...I don't think any less of them. But it does go along ways into knowing how what you talk about translates to your own trees.

I don't bullshit, my bonsai career is an open book. Everything I know has been poured out on many forums, blog and Facebook thru the years. If anyone can say anything about Al Keppler its that he knows what HE's talking about....cause I do it and show it. For better or worse I can debate about what I talk about cause I can show you how it worked over many years usually.

 

[Adair M]

By who..... who isn't using that anymore?

Are those still using it wrong in your opinion?

Thats the problem here...your always right and everyone else is always wrong. This is bonsainut not bonsaiAdair. Everyone is entitled to work on the trees as they see fit. Post whatever you want to and let people make up their own minds...not try and force it down their throat. You think this is CNN, I'll decide what is right, not you. This is not Bonsai study group, the Boon appreciation forum.... I have tremendous respect for Boon and know him quite personally for many years before you knew him..BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE DOES, and contrary to popular belief "He" is OK with that....but it seems that some SOB's are not. I know you think your helping...but maybe you need to rethink my offer on posting some of your own work here. Some progressions showing all that you have talked about for the last however many years it's been. Post it up, if you got it. If you don't thats ok too. There are many here that can't do that...I don't think any less of them. But it does go along ways into knowing how what you talk about translates to your own trees.

I don't bullshit, my bonsai career is an open book. Everything I know has been poured out on many forums, blog and Facebook thru the years. If anyone can say anything about Al Keppler its that he knows what HE's talking about....cause I do it and show it. For better or worse I can debate about what I talk about cause I can show you how it worked over many years usually.

That JBP technique used to be popular in Japan. I had a subscription to “Contemporary Bonsai” (a Japanese language bonsai magazine) back in the mid 1980’s, and there were ads in the back of tha magazine offering them for sale. Oh, I lusted after them! No one had anything like that for sale in the US, at least, none that I could find. That was pre Internet!

So, after my divorce, I didn’t do bonsai for a while. And then when I started back into it, and I decided to get serious, I went to Boon. I noticed none of his trees resembled those I had seen in the magazine. So, I asked. And he told me that they were no longer in fashion. That “they don’t do them like that anymore”. So, I let it go. I’m sure there’s probably someone one who does, but for the most part, they just field grow them. And use a single sacrifice leader, that gets repeatedly chopped back to build taper.

Smoke, I have posted a few trees I have worked on recently on “The Tree Thread”.

 

[MichaelS]

That JBP technique used to be popular in Japan. I had a subscription to “Contemporary Bonsai” (a Japanese language bonsai magazine) back in the mid 1980’s, and there were ads in the back of tha magazine offering them for sale. Oh, I lusted after them! No one had anything like that for sale in the US, at least, none that I could find. That was pre Internet!

So, after my divorce, I didn’t do bonsai for a while. And then when I started back into it, and I decided to get serious, I went to Boon. I noticed none of his trees resembled those I had seen in the magazine. So, I asked. And he told me that they were no longer in fashion. That “they don’t do them like that anymore”. So, I let it go. I’m sure there’s probably someone one who does, but for the most part, they just field grow them. And use a single sacrifice leader, that gets repeatedly chopped back to build taper.

Smoke, I have posted a few trees I have worked on recently on “The Tree Thread”.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here Adair. They don't do what technique anymore? They don't do them like that anymore? What is ''like that''. All those black pines are exactly the same. All made to the same formula. Just like yours. I'm confused. What are you talking about?

 

[papymandarin]

to answer michaelS question, my understanding is that the technique is about removing the competition with the leader axis, those small shoots you show defoliated but not trimmed are short and weak shoots and on a rather basal position, they don't compete with the apex, my guess is that he then just didn't bother removing them, the important shoots to remove are shown afterwards : those that actually compete with the leader.

well, of course the before picture is the second one!

 

[MichaelS]

, those small shoots you show defoliated but not trimmed are short and weak shoots and on a rather basal position, they don't compete with the apex, my guess is that he then just didn't bother removing them, the important shoots to remove are shown afterwards :

Come on now....not bother to remove, but bother to defoliate which takes three times as long? It seems to me that what is happening here is he himself self is not so sure what he should do. If he was he would not hesitate to remove them. Your theory is that by defoliating/removing shoots along a branch takes away competition to the branch they are removed from. Ok, so by removing the leaves along the little branchlets will - according to the theory - will help to thicken them, but that will in turn compete with the main branch and slow down it's thickening. So you should just cut them off and be done with it! Or could it be that leaving them will increase the vigour of the main branch? I wonder!
Don't believe that Japan is without it's superstitions. It isn't. eg, I once read from a Japanese azalea expert that you should never re- use the pot you removed the azalea from. You can wash and disinfect it but don't use it for the same plant. He gave no reason. (because there is no reason) It's just bullshit.

 

[papymandarin]

think what you want, for me it's quite simple, they started defoliating the tree just to see what's there FIRST, and then made the cuts as necessary, it's unlikely those weak shoots particularly after having been defoiated, would make any difference whether kept or not. You are just splitting hairs, and implying he is not even knowing what he is doing very unfair and mean. This thread is indeed about "apical dominance" but very obviously not the one of branches....

 

[papymandarin]

and about bullshit, of course there are somme running in bonsai, but you seem to forgot that a number of people here, including me, made the effort to see for themselves whether it was bullshit or not, and found it was not. It's not because something is not part of your tool box or part of your knowledge that it is necessary bullshit, except if you see yourself as being the ultimate encyclopedia of bonsai

 

[MichaelS]

papymandarin, think what you want, for me it's quite simple, they started defoliating the tree just to see what's there FIRST,

You are just making up stuff as an apologist to something which you are not sure about. You don't need to defoliate a branch to see if it's there. It's obvious the technique being employed is confused and unsure.

 

[papymandarin]

just read the damned article, it's written there : "Since the tree was so bushy, I started cutting off the leaves so I can see the branches I have to work with".

i'm probably much more "sure" than you are, given you never did it , you are much more an apologist than i am, you try to impose a definitive opinion without even practical experience of the thing itself, i just encourage people to be curious and try.

 

[Anthony]

haaah Sifu,

beating a dead horse. Stuff on the Internet, not reality.
Turn off the computer and it goes away.
Storm in a teacup.

Sadly, if we use side branches on certain trees, the trunk thickens.
It is evolution.
Also if the tips of the branches point upwards.................

All this --------- it is old [ 1980's bit ] ............

IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE BONSAI IS ART...................................

Then base your critiques and appreciation on the DESIGN of the tree
not the technique.

When folk have nothing to say in painting /art they frequently get stuck
on technique.

This is how you can tell when someone has no real ability for art.
Good Day
Anthony of the foot

 

[MichaelS]

just read the damned article, it's written there : "Since the tree was so bushy, I started cutting off the leaves so I can see the branches I have to work with".

Why are you getting so angry? Do you even understand the words you are writing? ''I started cutting off leaves to see what I HAVE TO WORK WITH'' If you are sure about what you are doing you don't bother cutting leaves off. JEZUZ!

i'm probably much more "sure" than you are, given you never did it , you are much more an apologist than i am, you try to impose a definitive opinion without even practical experience of the thing itself, i just encourage people to be curious and try.

I've been growing trees for 40 years every day and I have done every damn thing you can possibly think of regarding pruning. I already know what happens when you remove side branches.

 

[papymandarin]

again your splitting hairs, if there is so much leaves you don't even see the structure, even knowing what technique you want to apply, you need to remove the leaves to see where to work, or do you just plunge your pruiners blindly in the tree to cut? i'm not angry, i'm just finding ridiculous to use so light ( to say the least) arguments and the numerous tries as discrediting people abilities just because you don't agree with them.
Oh so finally after 11 pages you finally decided you have tried it? ( i remember you saying you did not need doing trials previously though, so i'm a bit confused). So anyway seemingly it didn't work for you, doesn't change the fact it did for a number of other people. Just shows that once again in bonsai there is rarely absolute truths

 

[Anthony]

Gustavo,

becareful, often on the internet folk fish for answers.
By having you do the fishing.

It is to save face or their reputation.

Judge them by their work, not their words.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here Adair. They don't do what technique anymore? They don't do them like that anymore? What is ''like that''. All those black pines are exactly the same. All made to the same formula. Just like yours. I'm confused. What are you talking about?

The tree in the video at 7:50 in. The one they are repotting. It’s made with a dozen sacrifice branches. The narrator says something about hw the branches thicken the trunk. That technique, using lots of sacrifice branches isn’t being done any more.

 

[Anthony]

Here is why this conversation is confusing-

2008
Texas ebony- side branch, pointed upwards - why - space limitations, sky is free,
sides on bench limited - healing wounds



2008
Ironwood - thickening branch



traditional trunk thickening - top branch




Fustic - main branch thickened - did nothing for the trunk
Sent to the growing pit to get the 3 inch trunk

 

[KeithE]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think. This technique has nothing to do with Peter, so any comments directed at him are ignorant. It is a commonly used technique in Japan. Smoke and others have proven it's not a required tactic to produce bonsai. Like Adair, some of us prefer to follow the Japanese methods since they are the best growers in the world. I did not see Peter or anyone else say this method MUST be used or that it is the ONLY method. If you disagree with it, simply don't use it. Or cry, kick and scream that it's wrong...