penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I concern myself with the moss but a bit of soil won't hurt a bit. It gives a really elegant thin carpet of moss. Try different mosses but if you want a really fine moss, harvest a very fine moss.
Moss
- Thread starter eryk2kartman
- Start date
It's Kev
Omono
I like having moss in my pots. In one of Nigel Saunders’s videos he had a ...think it was a lemon tree, anyway, it grew a ton of surface roots because the soil surface was covered my moss.
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
I like it because it keeps my pots moist. I dont always make it out to water the trees in the morning so it holds some of the moisture in from the previous day's watering.
Sthlmbonsai
Yamadori
I did a rock planting and went to the forest and picked different moss to try it out and they did well all of them. I didn’t cut them up, just pieced the different mosstypes together. Also had birds come and steal bits and pieces, I picked up whatever remained and somehow the moss seems intact still so I guess it grows a bit too. Attaching pictures, first one right when it was planted and then a few months later and finally in early winter. Don’t mind the sticks, they’ll be a later issue, just wanted to test the waters here and see if I could get it to work.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Seems to me there are other properties that make sphagnum moss a good choice for top dressing other than slowing down moisture evaporation. But I can't find it, bet @Leo in N E Illinois knows...
BonsaiNaga13
Chumono
I started collecting most to grow last year and put it on some potting soil let it spread and transplanted it. After a few good rains the moss settles and usually spreads on it's own. The sphagnum is to give the moss a wet surface to grow on that still drains well cuz dirt would clog the soil and without something wet the spores would take longer to grow and it might take a while to establish but once established grows very well. I also tried some on just bonsai soil, the moss dried up completely but new moss grew on top of the old moss like the moss should on top of the sphagnum
BonsaiNaga13
Chumono
Moss actually comes from spores
I would like to have moss around some of my trees but would guess in my low humidity area it would be tough unless watered 3-4 times a day. In the summer it can get hot here with 15% humidity. Is there anything else that will take the place of moss, be hardy, and look as good? I also can have below 0 temps in the winter at times. Thanks for help
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
I think what I have heard is that sphagnum moss has antibacterial qualities.
It does absorb and release moisture very slowly, I think even in a warm dry climate it could be used to good advantage, if you can keep it shaded a bit.
It does absorb and release moisture very slowly, I think even in a warm dry climate it could be used to good advantage, if you can keep it shaded a bit.
PiñonJ
Omono
Give it a try. I’ve seen the relative humidity here go down to 2% in June and I’m able to grow it in full sun by watering three times a day. My biggest problem is birds tearing it apart.
Silentrunning
Chumono
With all the rain we have had in the last few months we have a bumper crop of moss. I have started collecting several different types and trying to cultivate some of it on old wood slabs. I also am cleaning areas at the edge of the woods and seeing if I can get a good crop going where I can keep it watered during the dry season.
eryk2kartman
Chumono
I agree that moss is helping surface roots development,
lats year i planted some Fuchsia cuttings in very fast draining soil(50:50 potting grit/perlite), i was doing a bit of cleaning work today and noticed that moss wasnt that nice anymore. bit tired and over watered, so i took it off and to my surprise there was a ton of new feeder roots under, covered with new soil and left it till spring when i will be re-potting.
back to dried moss - i already collceted some ncie and dense moss, in process fo cutting/grinding it now, should have it all ready next week i guess.
lats year i planted some Fuchsia cuttings in very fast draining soil(50:50 potting grit/perlite), i was doing a bit of cleaning work today and noticed that moss wasnt that nice anymore. bit tired and over watered, so i took it off and to my surprise there was a ton of new feeder roots under, covered with new soil and left it till spring when i will be re-potting.
back to dried moss - i already collceted some ncie and dense moss, in process fo cutting/grinding it now, should have it all ready next week i guess.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
More noted for anti-fungal properties.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
There are thousands and thousands of kinds of moss. Unfortunately for non-bryologists, we can't tell the difference between the different species, but it doesn't matter. I bought two handbooks on moss, "MOSSES, And Other Bryophytes", by Bill & Nancy Malcolm, which is probably the definitive manual, especially if you routinely use your microscope, and "Moss Gardening", by George Schenk, which is book about using the different mosses in different applications of gardening. You buy the first to study moss, the second to use it in horticulture.
Moss is endemic, everywhere, just different kinds. It almost doesn't matter because to the ordinary mortal, they all look alike. They spread by spores which mature in the sporangium, the tiny little nodding capsules on skinny threads that grow above the Moss and are released in the breezezs. Be happy when you see these in your Moss, -that's next season's green blanket. Moss is not forever, but just like evergreens, they have new greenery growing in-between old greenery before the old dies, so they look like they live forever. For bonsaiists, the most important distinguishing characteristic is; you need to collect it from the same conditions that you intend to use it in. If you want to use it in a sunny location, collect it from a place that gets sun. If you want to grow it around trees that need complete shade, you can get that in a forest. If you collect forest kinds and put them in a sunny pot they will immediately perish. Sun-tolerant moss will just fade away in the shade.
Mosses and Lichens are substrate-specific: they grow mostly on cellulose, so some on concrete, some on old shingles, wood, bones, bricks, rocks, etc., and that's important. Assume that you have to put it on the same kind of substrate you found it to be successful. If you find it on an old shingle, just take the shingle home. Moss doesn't have roots, but it does have "feet". Try not to damage the feet. Use a thin metal spatula to pick it up. You can keep it on a tray like they use in a cafeteria for a year or more. You can find Moss for most bonsai purposes in places that are not disturbed for a few years. The best are the parking lots of business or industrial buildings that have been unocupied for years. It is important that the snow plows have not been there for some years. The rules of Moss hunting for bonsai are: it likes some shade. The best exposure is 1/2 day, either morning or afternoon, on either side of a north-south running wall, fence line, tree line, etc, or north of a shrub or low tree line as along a curb running east-west. They need more water than the area gets, in general, such that they are where the rain drains to. A little bit of dirt is helpfull, but not much dirt, -just a scrim. It needs to be to shallow to not support the weed seeds that germinate there. The Moss will be happy with rain, drought, rain, drought, rain, drought, but the weeds that greminate will die. There will still be lots of weed seeds hidden in the Moss, that's fine, since Moss doesn't have roots you can spray it with Round-Up. Caution: give it plenty of growing time to flush the residual Round-Up out of the system before you put it on your bonsai, or else. Look along curbs, at edges of sidewalks or parking lots where the earth is slightly higher than the pavement and soil has washed out onto the hard surface and that surface is where the rain drains to. Any place where there is a seam in the pavement that has opened up and soil has washed around a central drain, or down to another seam where one side has risen and blocks soil and water. After a while, you'll be able to drive past a good candidate at 60 miles and hour an spot it out of the corner of your eye.
Don't take it all and it will regenerate so you have a continuing supply. The older clumps are nice, but to apply in some situations, you need just the beginnings of Moss growth, like a green stain on the soil. That is really hard to handle, -collecting it breaks it up, tansporting it on the spatula to the tray, putting it on the pot surface. It will, however make a nice carpet soon after your put it in good conditions, so havest that too, when you get the bigger buns, because you'll need it to fit in small spaces without covering up roots, etc.
You can over-winter it on trays, too, and it will look better than if it were covered with mulch all winter. You can screen it into dust and keep it in a jar a long time. Apply it with a salt shaker to a unbroken surface like a slurry of chopped dry leaves you can stir into water until you get slimy glop. Lichen can be scraped off a surface and salted on another surface, but remember it is substrate-specific so if you have an iron bearing rock source, it has to go on the same kind of rock. Tree Lichens same thing: Maple-to-Maple, Beech-to-Beech, ad infinitum. Good hunting!
Moss is endemic, everywhere, just different kinds. It almost doesn't matter because to the ordinary mortal, they all look alike. They spread by spores which mature in the sporangium, the tiny little nodding capsules on skinny threads that grow above the Moss and are released in the breezezs. Be happy when you see these in your Moss, -that's next season's green blanket. Moss is not forever, but just like evergreens, they have new greenery growing in-between old greenery before the old dies, so they look like they live forever. For bonsaiists, the most important distinguishing characteristic is; you need to collect it from the same conditions that you intend to use it in. If you want to use it in a sunny location, collect it from a place that gets sun. If you want to grow it around trees that need complete shade, you can get that in a forest. If you collect forest kinds and put them in a sunny pot they will immediately perish. Sun-tolerant moss will just fade away in the shade.
Mosses and Lichens are substrate-specific: they grow mostly on cellulose, so some on concrete, some on old shingles, wood, bones, bricks, rocks, etc., and that's important. Assume that you have to put it on the same kind of substrate you found it to be successful. If you find it on an old shingle, just take the shingle home. Moss doesn't have roots, but it does have "feet". Try not to damage the feet. Use a thin metal spatula to pick it up. You can keep it on a tray like they use in a cafeteria for a year or more. You can find Moss for most bonsai purposes in places that are not disturbed for a few years. The best are the parking lots of business or industrial buildings that have been unocupied for years. It is important that the snow plows have not been there for some years. The rules of Moss hunting for bonsai are: it likes some shade. The best exposure is 1/2 day, either morning or afternoon, on either side of a north-south running wall, fence line, tree line, etc, or north of a shrub or low tree line as along a curb running east-west. They need more water than the area gets, in general, such that they are where the rain drains to. A little bit of dirt is helpfull, but not much dirt, -just a scrim. It needs to be to shallow to not support the weed seeds that germinate there. The Moss will be happy with rain, drought, rain, drought, rain, drought, but the weeds that greminate will die. There will still be lots of weed seeds hidden in the Moss, that's fine, since Moss doesn't have roots you can spray it with Round-Up. Caution: give it plenty of growing time to flush the residual Round-Up out of the system before you put it on your bonsai, or else. Look along curbs, at edges of sidewalks or parking lots where the earth is slightly higher than the pavement and soil has washed out onto the hard surface and that surface is where the rain drains to. Any place where there is a seam in the pavement that has opened up and soil has washed around a central drain, or down to another seam where one side has risen and blocks soil and water. After a while, you'll be able to drive past a good candidate at 60 miles and hour an spot it out of the corner of your eye.
Don't take it all and it will regenerate so you have a continuing supply. The older clumps are nice, but to apply in some situations, you need just the beginnings of Moss growth, like a green stain on the soil. That is really hard to handle, -collecting it breaks it up, tansporting it on the spatula to the tray, putting it on the pot surface. It will, however make a nice carpet soon after your put it in good conditions, so havest that too, when you get the bigger buns, because you'll need it to fit in small spaces without covering up roots, etc.
You can over-winter it on trays, too, and it will look better than if it were covered with mulch all winter. You can screen it into dust and keep it in a jar a long time. Apply it with a salt shaker to a unbroken surface like a slurry of chopped dry leaves you can stir into water until you get slimy glop. Lichen can be scraped off a surface and salted on another surface, but remember it is substrate-specific so if you have an iron bearing rock source, it has to go on the same kind of rock. Tree Lichens same thing: Maple-to-Maple, Beech-to-Beech, ad infinitum. Good hunting!
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
This is a real good take home message.
I have tried for years to get the wrong kind of mosses to grow on the wrong kind of substrates. It's a waste of time.
As we speak, I have flat trays with all of my soils (and only soils) out in the open, to be cultivated by whatever flies by. And it seems to work! Next year I'll have my own continuous supply.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
I was watching one of Ryan’s videso this afternoon and he showed how he applied the moss mix. Basically the mix is a 50:50 mix of sphagnum moss and wild moss collected from aggregate (parking lots, sidewalks, etc) surfaces. After allowing it to dry out he grinds it and sifts to 1/8-1/4” size which matches his soil mix. This is important since as they are the same size range the moss particles won’t migrate down into the soil mix and clog drainage. He then just hand applied it on the surface and moistened it. The result is a nice even flat surface for the moss to sprout and develop on. You don’t see the mismatched appearance when individual collected patches are applied. I have collected several flats of it from the cracks growing along the edge of our street curbs to dry and grind this spring. Now I just need tp find a local source of long fiber sphagnum to add to the mix, the little bricks at Lowes won’t go as far. Back when I ran the greenhouse in college I used to use full bales of the stuff.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Thanks @JudyB
Sphagnum moss - shredded long fiber sphagnum moss is used as a topping for bonsai trees. A layer 1/8th to 3/8ths deep (call it 1/4 inch, or roughly 0.6 cm). This is really important for tree that need to develop surface layer of feeder roots. The more shallow a bonsai pot is the more this layer becomes important, especially right after repotting and through the summer. It is normally removed for winter an fresh moss put in place for following spring-summer. This is done to encourage roots in the upper layer of potting media in the pot, this is not done as a display technique. Live moss is used for display, it can be used instead of sphagnum moss or it can be grown in the sphagnum moss. Trees with fine roots, like maples, azalea, rhododendrons in general, hornbeam, and other moist temperate forest species do well with this treatment. Trees in shallow pots benefit from this treatment. Some keep the layer of live moss year round. Most remove some or all of the live moss to make watering quicker and easier to gauge, as the layer of live moss, water will run over and off almost as much as what soaks in. It is a matter of personal horticultural technique, keep or remove at least some of the live moss. Up to you.
Unique properties of sphagnum moss. Sphagnum moss is several hundred species native to at least 6 of the 7 continents or 7 of the 8 continents, if you are with the group that now considers New Zealand as its own continent. Dried long fiber sphagnum is used often as a potting medium, as is peat moss. Peat moss is found below the layer of live sphagnum moss in the bogs. It is dead, partially decayed, and compressed sphagnum that has undergone some unique changes that time, pressure and the absence of oxygen and calcium minerals will cause in a peat bog. In time these layers continue to get deeper, compress, and eventually form the different minerals until it becomes the various transition materials on the way to becoming coal. The peat is strip mined, dewatered, and milled up to be used as potting media that is the main component of most commercial potting mixes. Peat & sphagnum hold very large amounts of water.
The potted plant industry, especially orchids uses long fiber sphagnum moss as a potting medium for epiphytic orchids, carnivorous plants and other plants. It has an advantage in that it holds enough water that often greenhouses do not have to water more than once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. This greatly lowers the labor costs for having people watering the plants. Long fiber sphagnum moss can contain phenolic compounds that work as antibacterial and antifungal properties. Prior to and through WW2 long fiber sphagnum was used in making bandage pads where there would be a lot of wound drainage. The pads would absorb a large amount of blood and fluids and the phenolic compounds would help keep infections down. The phenolics also changes the rates at which sphagnum moss decays in horticultural use.
Wisconsin or Canada sourced long fiber sphagnum moss - has the lowest phenolic content of commercially available sphagnum moss. As a potting media, it will decompose into a less than acceptable potting media in as little as 12 months, possibly quicker if the growing season is warm and the plants are heavily fertilized the moss will become unacceptable for raising orchids in as little as 8 months. Add maybe 6 months for uses in bonsai related horticulture.
Chile, Peru or other Andean country sourced sphagnum moss is medium high in phenolic content. These species of sphagnum are physically larger plants, and have more phenolics and more structure. These will last as orchid media for at least 12, usually to 24 months. This is very good quality moss and is adequate for commercial orchid production. It is harvested and sold in bulk for these markets. For bonsai purposes add 6 months or so to the ''usable time'' for these sources of moss.
New Zealand Sphagnum Moss - this is the premium grade moss, and as bogs have been harvested at rates that are quicker than regeneration, it is becoming an limited material in NZ. Cost is a premium. This sphagnum has very long fibers, and the highest of all observed phenolic contents. In orchid horticulture it can function adequately for up to 3 years. There is an almost ''cult like'' belief in certain circles as to its benefits. I no longer use it as the costs have gotten too high and the South American sourced sphagnums are more than adequate for what I use it for.
Hope it helps
Leo
Sphagnum moss - shredded long fiber sphagnum moss is used as a topping for bonsai trees. A layer 1/8th to 3/8ths deep (call it 1/4 inch, or roughly 0.6 cm). This is really important for tree that need to develop surface layer of feeder roots. The more shallow a bonsai pot is the more this layer becomes important, especially right after repotting and through the summer. It is normally removed for winter an fresh moss put in place for following spring-summer. This is done to encourage roots in the upper layer of potting media in the pot, this is not done as a display technique. Live moss is used for display, it can be used instead of sphagnum moss or it can be grown in the sphagnum moss. Trees with fine roots, like maples, azalea, rhododendrons in general, hornbeam, and other moist temperate forest species do well with this treatment. Trees in shallow pots benefit from this treatment. Some keep the layer of live moss year round. Most remove some or all of the live moss to make watering quicker and easier to gauge, as the layer of live moss, water will run over and off almost as much as what soaks in. It is a matter of personal horticultural technique, keep or remove at least some of the live moss. Up to you.
Unique properties of sphagnum moss. Sphagnum moss is several hundred species native to at least 6 of the 7 continents or 7 of the 8 continents, if you are with the group that now considers New Zealand as its own continent. Dried long fiber sphagnum is used often as a potting medium, as is peat moss. Peat moss is found below the layer of live sphagnum moss in the bogs. It is dead, partially decayed, and compressed sphagnum that has undergone some unique changes that time, pressure and the absence of oxygen and calcium minerals will cause in a peat bog. In time these layers continue to get deeper, compress, and eventually form the different minerals until it becomes the various transition materials on the way to becoming coal. The peat is strip mined, dewatered, and milled up to be used as potting media that is the main component of most commercial potting mixes. Peat & sphagnum hold very large amounts of water.
The potted plant industry, especially orchids uses long fiber sphagnum moss as a potting medium for epiphytic orchids, carnivorous plants and other plants. It has an advantage in that it holds enough water that often greenhouses do not have to water more than once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. This greatly lowers the labor costs for having people watering the plants. Long fiber sphagnum moss can contain phenolic compounds that work as antibacterial and antifungal properties. Prior to and through WW2 long fiber sphagnum was used in making bandage pads where there would be a lot of wound drainage. The pads would absorb a large amount of blood and fluids and the phenolic compounds would help keep infections down. The phenolics also changes the rates at which sphagnum moss decays in horticultural use.
Wisconsin or Canada sourced long fiber sphagnum moss - has the lowest phenolic content of commercially available sphagnum moss. As a potting media, it will decompose into a less than acceptable potting media in as little as 12 months, possibly quicker if the growing season is warm and the plants are heavily fertilized the moss will become unacceptable for raising orchids in as little as 8 months. Add maybe 6 months for uses in bonsai related horticulture.
Chile, Peru or other Andean country sourced sphagnum moss is medium high in phenolic content. These species of sphagnum are physically larger plants, and have more phenolics and more structure. These will last as orchid media for at least 12, usually to 24 months. This is very good quality moss and is adequate for commercial orchid production. It is harvested and sold in bulk for these markets. For bonsai purposes add 6 months or so to the ''usable time'' for these sources of moss.
New Zealand Sphagnum Moss - this is the premium grade moss, and as bogs have been harvested at rates that are quicker than regeneration, it is becoming an limited material in NZ. Cost is a premium. This sphagnum has very long fibers, and the highest of all observed phenolic contents. In orchid horticulture it can function adequately for up to 3 years. There is an almost ''cult like'' belief in certain circles as to its benefits. I no longer use it as the costs have gotten too high and the South American sourced sphagnums are more than adequate for what I use it for.
Hope it helps
Leo
Leo in N E Illinois
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One more thing, most live moss dislikes being watered with liquid fertilizers. If you plan them, have a lot of rain the moss will establish fine. But if the rain is not frequent (to flush fertilizer out of the moss) and you are watering frequently with liquid fertilizer , the moss will begin to decline.
So I plant moss a few weeks before showing. I with hold fertilizer or only use a dilute solution, then after showing, I'll just fertilize as needed for tree health. By the end of summer moss has patches of die back. Remove all the dead and most of the live for the winter. Replant new in spring if it is going to a show.
So I plant moss a few weeks before showing. I with hold fertilizer or only use a dilute solution, then after showing, I'll just fertilize as needed for tree health. By the end of summer moss has patches of die back. Remove all the dead and most of the live for the winter. Replant new in spring if it is going to a show.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Thank you @Leo in N E Illinois I knew you’d be able to talk to this subject with lots of knowledge.
eryk2kartman
Chumono
Wow,
Nice explanation Leo,
where does the Irish moss fits in?
Nice explanation Leo,
where does the Irish moss fits in?
