Misting newly-collected yamadori bark? (to encourage back-budding)

[SU2]

Well, um. Ficus isn't a temperate zone deciduous species. It is a tropical, native to Australia and other tropical zones.

That's not what the problem was, the problem was that the Benjamina variety of ficus simply doesn't back-bud from that type of hard-chop, no matter where in the world it was done

this is why collecting ISN'T a good place for beginners to start. Understanding the tree you're working with is VERY important. Before you dig or do drastic work, DO SOME RESEARCH.
Why haven't you researched Bougainvillea or crape myrtle? BTW, it's spelled CRAPE, not crepe--which is important for your search)..Information is pretty available here on this site and other places with a simple Google search.

I don't know if you're saying that to try and demean or you truly think I haven't researched, I mean bougies are like 90% of my collection and I've spent a year almost exclusively working with them and have spent an obscene amount of time researching them, your quote here is like I just started trying to collect bougies last week which isn't remotely the case, I've been learning&practicing bonsai with most of my free time for about a year and have easily 60-70 trees, I read bonsai stuff / watch youtubes with coffee literally every single morning... I don't know why you always talk to me like I've just got zero idea about anything (I imagine the disagreement in the yamadori thread about touching that bougie generated the ill-will..) but, while I may not be some advanced-level artist like you I'm not oblivious, I *am* in a completely reasonable position to be collecting (the fact that I do so, and have a ton of great collected plants, attests to this)

(and re crepes, my ex-fiance was canadian so I'm sure that's why I keep messing up and calling them 'crepes' lol!!)

Both species can take drastic reduction--especially the bougainvillea--even large sawed off trunk sections of this species with no roots will develop them if treated properly. Big vigorous vines like Bougies, wisteria and some other subtropical to temperate zone vine species are extremely tough and can take a lot of abuse.

I know this - bougies & crapes were the ONLY two that I knew would reliably handle it (And I just learned crapes handled it like a month ago, already have a big one!), have been dying to find others that have the same level of durability to this treatment - thank you for mentioning wisteria, you just increased my search width a lot (considering how small it is now) My biggest problem was I thought it was *just* a tiny handful that could handle this - it seems wisteria is another one which is good to know (people have said 'all'/most-all but there's species I've tried - oaks, for instance, where hard-chopping and collecting has been a 0% success rate for me... while someone else may've been able to get that to work, I'm more interested in what species I can yamadori-hunt for, that will take extreme hard-chops on their transplant day (my mental list is now bougies, crapes, wisteria - the "all deciduous" may be true in that they 'can' be done, by someone with far more knowledge/skill, but I'm just trying to widen my range of what I can look for and work with, being a beginner I really like more forgiving species like these!!)

Bougainvillea
https://adamaskwhy.com/2014/05/05/collecting-a-big-bougainvillea/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/collected-bougainvillea.18088/
http://www.wigertsbonsai.com/bougainvillea-development/

Crape myrtle
https://adamaskwhy.com/2013/02/16/specimen-crepe-myrtle-progression/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIg2PsAqfDA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZzLGLT1nUQ

Thanks for the youtubes will check them out That page you linked from adamaskwhy is literally what got me into this around 1yr ago lol!! I've read his site many times over (and converse with him occasionally through reddit), him/walter pall/mirai are some of my biggest inspirations (and the wigerts but more for bougies-only)

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Wait wait, auxin is *created* in the bud tips? I thought it was primarily created in the roots and flowed upward, *concentrating in* the apical meristems (am going to need to re-read the wiki page on polar auxin transport, great refresher read!)

The majority (over 90%) is created in the apical meristems, though a minority is also created in the stem and the roots. The auxin created in the meristem travels down the tree towards the base of the trunk, the auxin produced in the roots travels down the root towards the base of the roots, however it is my understand that auxin from the meristems does not travel into the roots and auxin from the roots does not travel into the trunk.

 

[rockm]

I'm not trying to demean anyone. From the stuff you've posted here, it's a very confusing picture of what you know and don't know.

Re-read this:
"'Just about any'??? I'm not doubting you, I just had the complete opposite impression, I'd thought bougies and crepe myrtles were the exception to the rule (my first attempted yamadori was me hard-chopping my beautiful 6' ficus benjamina to a ~1.5" tall trunk with excellent nebari - thought it'd be incredible with a standard canopy on that trunk....then spent months watching it slowly die, despite having subsequently found out ficus benjamina do not back-bud from those types of hard-chops) If what I've been looking to crepes and bougies for applies to most-everything then that completely changes the game for me, I mean I just assumed - after my ficus incident - that a species had to be 'that type' that could handle it, I thought things like bougies/crepes were the outliers not the ficus b.!!"

I simply find that confusing.

Starting over, no, ficus isn't a temperate zone tree. It won't act like one. Although bougainvillea is extremely tough, it's not an exception.

All kinds of temperate zone trees, from bald cypress, hornbeam, privet and elm can be dug, chopped and put in a container all at once if collection is done at the right time of year. If you want examples of what can be done with what in the South. take a look at Zach Smith's bonsaisouth web site.
https://bonsai-south.com/
I've accompanied Zach on a collecting expedition a few months ago. He uses a reciprocating saw to "dig" trees...

 

[Zach Smith]

I'm not trying to demean anyone. From the stuff you've posted here, it's a very confusing picture of what you know and don't know.

All kinds of temperate zone trees, from bald cypress, hornbeam, privet and elm can be dug, chopped and put in a container all at once if collection is done at the right time of year. If you want examples of what can be done with what in the South. take a look at Zach Smith's bonsaisouth web site.
https://bonsai-south.com/
I've accompanied Zach on a collecting expedition a few months ago. He uses a reciprocating saw to "dig" trees...

And don't forget my secret weapon - a strong son 30 years younger than I am.

 

[Victorim]

And don't forget my secret weapon - a strong son 30 years younger than I am.

Hehe I hope have a strong helper in 30 years.. collecting at the moment is me telling my six year old "for the last time.. no, you can't have a go at the electric saw.."

 

[M. Frary]

have been dying to find others that have the same level of durability to this treatment

This is what you can do to elms.
This went from 10 feet tall or more to the colander in less than an hour.
I left about 4 little tiny feeder roots. If you look really close you can spot one or two. But basically it's a block of wood.
It's still in the same colander from when I did this to it. The last picture is what it looked like in about 5 weeks.

 

[sorce]

researched

Research can be deceiving.

RockM is never deceiving!

The only way to truly figure out any tree is to grow one and experiment with cuttings as Anthony says.

The trees don't know what we read!
That's to say....

Not everything is going to happen as we think...
Even much much less so when we are new and dealing with trees we think are healthy simply because they are growing!

A ficus Benjamin at 100% health can bud below a chop with no foliage.
But quite honestly.....it would Probly have to come from the ground!
I have never seen a ficus Benjamin at 100% health.
Not from a nursery...
Not in a bonsai pot....
Damn sure not from Craigslist!

So 9 times out of ten....
The Ben's we hear about aren't capable of producing those buds....so that's why we believe that information.
There's a lot more people bringing these home from the office than there are California's cutting them out of the landscape!

An indoor ficus, even just in winter under the best lights...is not 100%.

Hell....if I were a ficus....I would know the part that got knocked off the top of me has a damn good chance to root sitting on the jungle floor....
So why would I bother popping buds anyway?
There's a 96% chance the rootless top of me will survive!
That could probly be scientifically proven.

Anyway....

Where ARE these bougies?

I'm starting to think the soil may be contaminated.

A wilting bougie in Florida is confusing!

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

Also I don't call collected stumps yamadori.
Yamadori is different.

 

[rockm]

After looking at the photos of your trees, I'd say you've got a problem with everything being a bit too wet, from the soil to the foliage on your trees.

Misting is probably contributing to your issues, if not causing some of them.

 

[BillsBayou]

Also I don't call collected stumps yamadori.
Yamadori is different.

Rather terse. I'd like to discuss this more.

If I get you right, yamadori would be those trees where much of the structure of the envisioned bonsai is already in place. This is what itches at my brain when I collect a big bald cypress, remove all the branches, and then someone says "Nice yamadori!" Hmmmm... I'm going to wait a year to see where the branches pop. I'm going to let the tree tell me what it can and cannot do; what can and cannot be done to it. But all I start with is a wide base, interesting roots, and 4-feet of timber. Is it yamadori or not?

The word yamadori roughly means "plant dug from the mountains." But then, bonsai means "tree in a pot". We have to go deeper into what it means with respect to bonsai. Is it your tree or is it nature's tree? I imagine the Japanese mean it is nature's tree. My bald cypress are my trees. The fat buttress belongs to mother nature, but the branches and the tops are all mine.

 

[M. Frary]

I call it collecting stumps.
You're building a tree from scratch basically.
Yamadori is where nature builds close to everything.

 

[rockm]

I call it collecting stumps.
You're building a tree from scratch basically.
Yamadori is where nature builds close to everything.

Are you insane? That's a VERY narrow definition. Natural bonsai are like unicorns. Yamadori--which really has no English equivalent meaning--means to me, a start with a trunk that nature made--mostly...The vast majority of yamadori. including all those big western conifers--require a lot of altering, breaking, pruning, growing out and wiring that doesn't involve "Nature."

"Stump collecting" is a kind of a high-handed phrase to me anyway. You're doing that with those noble evergreens from west of the Mississippi too...You're after the trunk mostly, the rest can be gravy...

 

[0soyoung]

I call it collecting stumps.

I presume this is only because 'stumping' has been in use for some time by politicians.

 

[miker]

Lol I see what you're saying But I don't think it's coincidence, when it's a rainy week here the air feels like a greenhouse, makes sense that buds could swell/start shooting easier in a more humid enviro!

I have also noticed (I think) increased growth on trees and shrubs here in PA during wet, rainy, muggy stretches when the temperature is also warm.

 

[M. Frary]

Are you insane

Nope.
I've been checked.

 

[coh]

Nope.
I've been checked.

 

[M. Frary]

It has been a while though.

 

[Victorim]

Ok technically collecting stumps is "Yamadori".. to me unless my jaw drops from seeing it its just collected material. Suppose it all with how highly you grade the term.

 

[M. Frary]

The way I collect deciduous trees is only just stumps.

Still building the tree. It's been 3 years since collection. Still a few to go.

 

[SU2]

The majority (over 90%) is created in the apical meristems, though a minority is also created in the stem and the roots. The auxin created in the meristem travels down the tree towards the base of the trunk, the auxin produced in the roots travels down the root towards the base of the roots, however it is my understand that auxin from the meristems does not travel into the roots and auxin from the roots does not travel into the trunk.

fascinating, thank you! Had spent days reading college-level pdf's on roots & root-structures, it's been a while though my understanding was clearly way off!

I'm not trying to demean anyone. From the stuff you've posted here, it's a very confusing picture of what you know and don't know.

Re-read this:
"'Just about any'??? I'm not doubting you, I just had the complete opposite impression, I'd thought bougies and crepe myrtles were the exception to the rule (my first attempted yamadori was me hard-chopping my beautiful 6' ficus benjamina to a ~1.5" tall trunk with excellent nebari - thought it'd be incredible with a standard canopy on that trunk....then spent months watching it slowly die, despite having subsequently found out ficus benjamina do not back-bud from those types of hard-chops) If what I've been looking to crepes and bougies for applies to most-everything then that completely changes the game for me, I mean I just assumed - after my ficus incident - that a species had to be 'that type' that could handle it, I thought things like bougies/crepes were the outliers not the ficus b.!!"

I simply find that confusing.

Sorry for the poor communication - I was asking you to be sure I understood you when you said 'just about any' deciduous tree could take that treatment (as I'd been thinking bougies were some exception to the rule, I mean I love bougies but if I thought I could just grab any deciduous yamadori the way I'd grab a bougie, I'd have WAY more options available to me) It surprised me to hear you say that, since, when I was in my beginnings, I'd find almost no species took those types of transplants (except bougies and hibiscus - I'd had no luck trying that with any oaks, maples, junipers, etc) So was just wanting to verify you meant that 'just about any' deciduous can take what bougies/crapes do, as that'd be paradigm-shifting for me (and contrary to my experiences, but they're limited enough that I don't doubt I was wrong)

[and re the ficus, that was simply because it was the benjamina variety - I found out after the fact that it was a variety that just doesn't come back from hard-chops as other ficus specie do, also it wasn't wild-collected or even transplanted, it was a topiary I'd had for a while and created an excellent nebari on, but it was 7' tall, when I first got into bonsai I hard-chopped it and then spent months watching it die!]

All kinds of temperate zone trees, from bald cypress, hornbeam, privet and elm can be dug, chopped and put in a container all at once if collection is done at the right time of year. If you want examples of what can be done with what in the South. take a look at Zach Smith's bonsaisouth web site.
https://bonsai-south.com/
I've accompanied Zach on a collecting expedition a few months ago. He uses a reciprocating saw to "dig" trees...

Thanks a ton, looks like the type of link I'll be spending a while on, very much appreciated

Re reciprocating saw, yeah if a tree has any good vertical roots at the bottom (tap or otherwise), a sawzall's virtually required!! I've done excavations w/ and w/o a reciprocating saw and while it just simplifies most excavations I've had two where there's zero way I would've gotten it out of the ground w/o having a sawzall for the bottom-most roots, like when you've got a >8" thick tap-root coming straight down out of the center, and can hardly reach it let alone hand-saw it!