Mini Shimp

[edprocoat]

This is a little Shimpaku, just thought I'd see what you nuts think about her.


minishimp by EdsBonsai, on Flickr

ed

 

[jkd2572]

She's so little. It's just a baby

 

[Vance Wood]

The kind of growth it is exhibiting is not what you want. You need to fertilize and give it as much sun as it will bear. You may get juvenile growth at first but you need to get fat adult growth. It has great potential but in my experience this kind of growth is weak and will not get you what you want. You may be forced into allowing it to grow for a couple of years and then cutting it back. I know there is the tendency there to put wire on it and trying to make the bonsai you know is sitting there right before you----you should try to avoid this until the tree gains strength.

 

[edprocoat]

I bought this at a show in Columbus Ohio, it was wired with metal wire twice as thick as the copper I replaced it with, it looked almost like clothes hanger wire and it was rusted almost through in most places. I do not want it any larger, I think getting the rusted wire off it may help it some. At the least it could not hurt it. I think the metal wire was perhaps stunting this trees growth. Assuming that metal wire that size would have to take at least a few years to rust away like that and looking at the apparent age of the pot which seems to have several years worth of water stains on it and this thing is hardly any size at all, that and the fact that the foliage is sort of a more yellowish color than you normally see in a shimpaku juniper I feel the rusted wire has retarded the growth of the plant. Which coincedently is just fine by me, I like the size and the shape I wired into it just fine, all I would like is to thicken out the foliage pads some, I am fertilizng it and expecting some growth in the next few months, hopefully.

ed

 

[fore]

Was thinking the same Vance. She needs some loving care and food Ed, I hope you won't mind if I ask a question about one of my weaker trees?

I have one that's sl. larger than this one and it has me baffled a bit. 90% of the tree is growing very strong adult foliage, but there's 2 small branches that are also adult foliage, but won't green up and isn't growing. Any ideas how to approach this? Just strange to me that the majority of the tree is doing great, but 10% isn't doing squat. (it was given to me this spring and it's in a small trainer pot with turface, but a lg. % of organics in it...so my ONLY thought was it could be the roots??) Full sun and strong fert every 7dys.

 

[jk_lewis]

Ed, Vance is 100% right. This tree needs heavy fertilization, then some growth, followed with constant pinching of the foliage. You need to promote growth closer to the trunk, if possible. The best way to create good shohin or mame is to allow trees to grow, THEN cut them back.

But you have a good eye for a little tree with a lot of potential. You just have to remember that it is MUCH harder to produce a tiny tree that projects the same ancient image as does a 3-foot tree of the same species.

 

[misfit11]

Ed, Vance is 100% right. This tree needs heavy fertilization, then some growth, followed with constant pinching of the foliage. You need to promote growth closer to the trunk, if possible. The best way to create good shohin or mame is to allow trees to grow, THEN cut them back.

But you have a good eye for a little tree with a lot of potential. You just have to remember that it is MUCH harder to produce a tiny tree that projects the same ancient image as does a 3-foot tree of the same species.

I agree with jkl on everything he has to offer here except the part about "constant pinching". Ryan Neil says ABSOLUTELY NOT when it comes to pinching junipers. He said that in the 6 years that he apprenticed under Kimura, he never once pinched a juniper. He recommends cutting back to nodes to maintain shape, promote backbudding, and adding density to the foliage. The one exception that he allowed for pinching would be before a show in order to perfect a silhouette. Pinching (and especially constant pinching) will result in weakening of the tree.

I know that this is contrary to everything that we have read about juniper care in books, but I think I'll take Ryan's word and his 6 yrs working with arguably the most accomplished bonsai master in the world as justification for taking it.

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree with jkl on everything he has to offer here except the part about "constant pinching". Ryan Neil says ABSOLUTELY NOT when it comes to pinching junipers. He said that in the 6 years that he apprenticed under Kimura, he never once pinched a juniper. He recommends cutting back to nodes to maintain shape, promote backbudding, and adding density to the foliage. The one exception that he allowed for pinching would be before a show in order to perfect a silhouette. Pinching (and especially constant pinching) will result in weakening of the tree.

I know that this is contrary to everything that we have read about juniper care in books, but I think I'll take Ryan's word and his 6 yrs working with arguably the most accomplished bonsai master in the world as justification for taking it.

Compelling argument, but without details it is difficult to truly understand what he is saying. Any clearification? Sometimes we in bonsai run into a conflict of terms saying one thing but meaning another.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I remember reading about this in Intenational Bonsai, Jim Gremmel outlined the process on this juniper, and may have credited it to Boon..? Maybe Bill can clarify.

The shift was from gripping a handful of foliage and pinching off tips that extend beyond the profile, toward selectively pruning back entire shoots that stick out from the profile. This results in pads, while preserving the multiple growing tips.

It works, and also shows that techniques really do evolve.

 

[misfit11]

Compelling argument, but without details it is difficult to truly understand what he is saying. Any clearification? Sometimes we in bonsai run into a conflict of terms saying one thing but meaning another.

From a thread on BNut http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7801-Pinching-back-RMJs Dan W says:

"I asked Ryan Neil the same question and here is his response:

For junipers, the rocky mountain juniper should not be pinched. This causes a shock response in the tree which stimulates juvenille growth. Instead, they need to be allowed to grow and accumulate resources and then pruned back to strong shoots."

AND

Dav4 says:

"I would suggest that this is how you shoud treat all junipers, irregardless of species. Constant pinching keeps them in a chronically weakened, stressed condition which leads to leggy, juvenile growth. Pruning back to lignified wood will allow the tree to remain strong and produce fuller, more compact, mature growth."

Also from Michael Hagedorns blog http://crataegus.com/2012/07/22/cryptomeria-and-foemina-juniper-year-two/ :

"Foemina juniper as it looked in July 2012. Notice that the top foliage pads are not yet fully defined, and the bottom ones are beginning to come sharply into focus. This is only possible through scissor work. Pinching any of the needle type junipers—J. rigida, J. communis, or Foemina—results in weak trees that do not have clear pad definition. The reasons for this are worthy of another post… but in short, don’t pinch any juniper—the needle junipers in particular need to grow out and extend several inches to build energy before you cut with a scissors, otherwise you’ll have a panicked and distressed tree. (Scale juniper work is totally different.) This Foemina has regained some of its natural vigor with scissor training."

 

[edprocoat]

@ Fore, are those two branches in the open? If so maybe they have been weakened by either cracking some of the bark when bending or spider mites maybe. It does seem odd that such a small area would not thrive as well as the rest of the tree.

About the pinching versus cutting back on a juniper. I have always been under the impression that a needle type juniper needed to be cut back with a scissors and a scale type could be pinched. I even cut back the juvenile needle foliage on plants that develop mature scale type foliage. I do find that if you pinch needle foliage it can leave the remaining tip to turn brown and die off a little bit.

ed

 

[fore]

@ Fore, are those two branches in the open? If so maybe they have been weakened by either cracking some of the bark when bending or spider mites maybe. It does seem odd that such a small area would not thrive as well as the rest of the tree.

No mites or other disease, and it gets sun from the south/southwest lighting. Haven't done a first style either. Speaking of pinching vs. cutting, I too have heard it's best to cut the the tips off of healthy growing branches. So that's what I did last week to this shimpaku. I'll repot next spring, but I'm pretty sure it's just in too much of an organic substrate so it stays a bit on the wet side.