Metal halide question

[Kevster]

So I have been using HO compact fluorescent lights for my wintering my tropicals indoors. Having 6 bulbs at 96 watts a piece specifically for vegetive growth they worked great!!!

But I want to upgrade to a halide so I can use the light strip as it was intended for and get my saltwater reef tank up and running again.

The area I need to light is 6 feet long 32 inches deep. So a 600 watt halide should work just fine. What I am having trouble figuring out is the reflector. No site that I have come across will tell you how big or which reflector to use to cover a certain area. They only give the dimensions of the hood. I know there are variables to figure out such as how high the light is hung. But some basic guide lines would be helpful.

Also would it be better to have two 400s instead of one 600 to cover that area?

Any advice would be welcome especially from people who have halides.

I know BNut is probably really worn out with website updating but maybe he will chime in.

Thanks everyone!
Kevin

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Keep your HO fixture for your trees and go LED for your reef tank

I used to be a huge MH fan, but times change. The cost of operation, the heat, the cost of replacing the bulbs... it adds up. Personal opinion, of course I am switching to LED's for just about all uses as quickly as the bulbs are available at a reasonable price. Prices are dropping 30% each year for comparable bulbs, and efficiency keeps going up. Of course where we live electricity is going for $.30 per kWhr...

 

[Kevster]

I was thinking about using LED lights but I can't seem to find any real solid comparison between them and other light fixtures except for what Jerry Meislik did in 2007. Which he determined fluorescent lighting still showed a better yield of growth.
LED being expensive I will have to do some reading and have serious proof for me to go that route. I know it will be the lighting of the very near future. I just need some proof that its ready.

 

[Kevster]

Sorry I read that wrong.
A few friends of mine have gone LED for their tanks and are very unhappy with them. They said the corals do not open up like they normally would.
So they both went back to using their old light source one being MH the other VHO.
I do believe LED can do the work and possibly better. But you have to find the light spectrum that meets your needs. Unfortunately if you buy the wrong LED kit it's not as easy as changing a couple inexpensive bulbs compared to having to buy a whole new board and light set up.

I will have to do some serious research! Bonsai is expensive but forgiving to a point especially with tropicals. Corals and reef tanks are ridiculously expensive with a very small margin of forgiveness.

 

[C.A. Young]

Halide

So I have been using HO compact fluorescent lights for my wintering my tropicals indoors. Having 6 bulbs at 96 watts a piece specifically for vegetive growth they worked great!!!

But I want to upgrade to a halide so I can use the light strip as it was intended for and get my saltwater reef tank up and running again.

The area I need to light is 6 feet long 32 inches deep. So a 600 watt halide should work just fine. What I am having trouble figuring out is the reflector. No site that I have come across will tell you how big or which reflector to use to cover a certain area. They only give the dimensions of the hood. I know there are variables to figure out such as how high the light is hung. But some basic guide lines would be helpful.

Also would it be better to have two 400s instead of one 600 to cover that area?

Any advice would be welcome especially from people who have halides.

I know BNut is probably really worn out with website updating but maybe he will chime in.

Thanks everyone!
Kevin

In my opinion, you should try running two 400's rather than one 600. You spread your lumens out over a greater distance. AAOf course, you could set up your tank with a mound of live rock and coral in the centre right under the light, and use the sides for species that do not need as much light (some soft & anemonies). And remember that a minimum of 10,000 kelvin for your bulbs. As for reflectors, I'm rather partial to the dimpled silver kind, but white also works well. Try to avoid those that are basically just mirrors, as they tend to reflect not only light, but a lot of heat as well. My suggestion would be to head over to a hydroponics store and pick up a couple of relatively cheap HID reflectors, hang them ver the tank, turn out the lights in the room, and turn your bulbs on. Then you'll be able to see optimal height to hang your lights so as to cover as much of the tank as possible.

 

[Kevster]

Thanks C.A. Young. If I go MH I will probably go with two 400s.

As for the reef tank the light strip I have on my bonsai was originally for my 180 gal reef tank. I had to tear it down and sell everything of due to a motorcycle accident in 2007. So I know for sure the strip I have will work great and covered the whole tank as I've used it for 8 years. I used to run 10,000k, 7,000k/actinic, and actinic in it as we'll as the 12 LED moon lights at night.
Only downside to any type of fluorescent bulb with anything is the lack of transfer in depth. So all my high light corals had to be up high in the tank where low light animals went on the bottom.

Same goes with bonsai. Fluorescent just don't have the light to get down to the bottom leaves on taller plants. This is what I'm worried about since a few of my trees are now almost 30" tall.

As for the reflectors. I don't have a hydro store anywhere close to me to be able to look at them or talk to someone in person.
I will keep the dimpled reflectors in mind. I know what they look like. How about the size of the reflector?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

A few friends of mine have gone LED for their tanks and are very unhappy with them.

Check out this thread on Reef Central. Got me excited

LED's are going to replace all incandescent and CF bulbs within 10 years - and probably closer to 5 in most applications. They just have too many advantages and most importantly, there is no current technical barrier for how efficient they can get, or how low their cost can drop. When I stated the "30% per year" cost drop - that is an industry average. Some applications (like residential lighting) are dropping 50% per year while they are becoming more efficient.

Your children will grow up wondering what an incandescent light bulb is...

 

[Kevster]

I can say the lights my two friends had on their tanks looked NOTHING like those and now I'm excited!!!

So why wouldn't those work on indoor tropical bonsai?

 

[davetree]

Go down to the local hydroponic store and ask. They will tell you that LED technology isn't quite there yet. Less heat, less power, yes. Results, though, are not as good as halide and sodium lamps.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Go down to the local hydroponic store and ask. They will tell you that LED technology isn't quite there yet. Less heat, less power, yes. Results, though, are not as good as halide and sodium lamps.

Commercially available solutions, yes. They always run several years behind what the DIY and tech crowd are whipping up in their garages. Plus the market for garden / hydroponics is a niche market where innovation lags. However on paper LED's already have them beat, and it is just a question of time before they are gone.

Nothing quite like removing an incandescent 75 watt bulb and replacing it with a 13 watt LED that generates the same lumens and color temp, generates 1/10th the heat, won't break (due to impact), and lasts 22 years I just swapped out bulbs in a back hallway, and went from 375 watts to 65 watts... and the hallway is brighter

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So why wouldn't those work on indoor tropical bonsai?

I think they WOULD work - you just have to get the right spectral intensity. Many of the 1st and 2nd generation reef and hydroponic LED lights create a wall of light by using a mix of low wattage LED emitters of different spectra. The emitter in that thread is a multi-chip; it is the path the industry is going down for high-intensity uses like street lights, stadium lights, etc. It is very bright. Very bright as in - if you look at it with unprotected eyes you can damage your eyesight. But if you know what you are doing you can build a solution today that mimics a single-point metal halide.

One downside is that with the "wall of light" solution you can get multi-controllers that allow you to control different light channels for custom effects like sunrise, lightning, cloudy days, etc. Once you get used to it, it is hard to give it up for a single point solution that may or may not be dimmable. However if you are looking to replicate the metal halide experience you can do it today with LED technology that is just as intense, and is more efficient.

By the way, I invest in some LED stocks that is why I follow the industry so closely.

 

[Kevster]

Lol I was talking to my better half yesterday saying we need to buy stock in LED.
That would be a nice share to have when I retire. I need to do it before they really take off!!

 

[Redwood Ryan]

This thread has inspired me. I think tomorrow I'll take a trip to my local pet store and buy an LED fixture to experiment. I wonder how much they cost to run per month...

Or maybe?

http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Freshwater-Bright-p/56204.htm

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This thread has inspired me. I think tomorrow I'll take a trip to my local pet store and buy an LED fixture to experiment. I wonder how much they cost to run per month...

Or maybe?

http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Freshwater-Bright-p/56204.htm

You have to really watch what you buy, Ryan. Many retail fixtures will not be good for indoor plant growing. You really need to be looking at something putting out thousands of lumens... the fixture you linked generates 600. That isn't even as much light as you get from a 100 watt incandescent bulb... Now with LED fixtures you can get by with a little less light (overall) because you can more specifically target light generation in only those spectra that the plant uses for photosynthesis. Still, any old fixture won't cut it - you need fixtures specifically designed for growing water plants (and/or corals) versus just illuminating them.

 

[mat]

Lol I was talking to my better half yesterday saying we need to buy stock in LED.
That would be a nice share to have when I retire. I need to do it before they really take off!!

No doubt that LED's are the future. Obviously you're not the first to think of investing in related companies. Part of the trouble is that there are lots of players - tough to just invest in "LED's". One somewhat "pure play" is Cree (ticker is also CREE, which makes it easy). They're establishing themselves as a producer of quality components. Been a bumpy ride for their stock so far though...

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CREE+Basic+Chart&t=1y

 

[Redwood Ryan]

You have to really watch what you buy, Ryan. Many retail fixtures will not be good for indoor plant growing. You really need to be looking at something putting out thousands of lumens... the fixture you linked generates 600. That isn't even as much light as you get from a 100 watt incandescent bulb... Now with LED fixtures you can get by with a little less light (overall) because you can more specifically target light generation in only those spectra that the plant uses for photosynthesis. Still, any old fixture won't cut it - you need fixtures specifically designed for growing water plants (and/or corals) versus just illuminating them.

Ah yes, great point. I use T5HO fixtures, which work great. I'll search the net and see if I can find anything for plants that won't break the bank. Thanks!

 

[tmmason10]

Buying LED stock is a great idea, love mixing two passions in one forum. I am excited to see where LED ends up in a few years I think it will definitely become a viable option for indoor growing, as it probably already has in certain households.

Quick story. My dad is a diver and every year he has some pals that stay at our house and go diving for a week. There is one handy guy who I was told deals with electronics and lights. He made a LED dive flashlight by hand in his workshop. He used only ONE LED diode and it had three settings. The brightest setting was easily brighter than the largest dive light I have ever seen. I was impressed and immediately started looking into buying a LED fixture off amazon to experiment with. I just couldn't decide and wasn't sure about them so I didn't pull the trigger.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Tom check out the link I posted above. If you read through it, the guys are making reef aquarium lights by buying high intensity multi-chip LED's and gluing them with thermal cement to PC CPU coolers/heatsinks. The guy goes so far as to link a very informative (and easy to follow) YouTube video on the whole process.

One 50 watt multichip LED over a 160 gallon cube tank:

 

[chansen]

Check these out if you want LEDs for your tank: http://www.liverocknreef.com/liverock/index.php?l=product_detail&p=9065

The company operates a retail store just around the corner from where I work. These fixtures are nice because they're dimmable, so you can acclimate your corals to the new light and then keep your T5s for your trees. They have the lights manufactured for them locally, and this is all they run over the tanks in their store. Their tanks look awesome and the fixtures are less than most of the name brand ones.

Good luck!

 

[tmmason10]

Geez that post had 105 pages! I think reef tankers are nuttier than bonsai nutters.