Medium/Large (?) Bougie close to full-flower, want to show someone before I go outside and de-flower! (also, advice on pinching v pruning...)

[Random User]

SU2;

If my memory serves me correctly, adding magnesium raises the ph, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot.

If you're dead set on using magnesium, why not just do a foliar spray? You could do a calcium spray at the same time.

I'd suggest that you go to a hydroponics shop and buy some "ph down" for soils. (buy some "ph up" at the same time because you're bound to overshoot the mix at some point) If you're at 8 and you want to go to 6 (in your soil), you might have to overshoot the target for the first couple of waterings... like a 5.

I'd take MH7's advice and simply buy bougain ... if I could get it here, I'd use that for a year before making any changes.

AND, if after a short period of time your boug isn't looking great in FL., I'd start looking at the possibility of root diseases...

 

[milehigh_7]

I think you will find people with good looking bougies mostly don't worry much about pH.

If that's the case, their results are based on luck.

Setting up with a nice bonsai potting media with a good amount of composted bark, really goes a long way to compensate for municipal water problems.

Guess what bark does, it lowers the pH. However, as bougie roots can be susceptible to fungus (really the roots are the only sensitive thing on bougs) too much organic is a really bad idea.

 

[milehigh_7]

Also if you can get Sul Po Mag (Langbeinite), I prefer it to Epsom salts because it does not raise the salinity the way that Epsom salts do.

 

[SU2]

SU2;
If my memory serves me correctly, adding magnesium raises the ph, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot.

Damn! Well I guess it's a question of how much it raises it by, there's 10% Mg+ and 13% Su in Epsom Salts, so the net would still be acidic if Mg+ and Su were equipotent in their basic/acidic values, hopefully will know for sure soon as I've posted to an ask-chemistry board about what the actual # change in pH would be to my 7.98pH water by using x amount of Epsom Salts

If you're dead set on using magnesium, why not just do a foliar spray? You could do a calcium spray at the same time.

I'm not dead-set on it at all! I had to kill time one day and was reading the wiki page Plant Nutrition, it got me very confused at the lack of Mg+ in commercial fertilizer formulations and got me thinking I needed to add more Mg+.....my only on-hand minerals product had more iron>Mg+ and at the time I was suspecting Mg+ deficiency (thought I'd ruled-out iron/Fe deficiency as the cause of my bougies' chlorosis, in hindsight I see that having used iron supplements on really basic pH substrate/water really wouldn't have corrected an iron issue), so I just fell into Epsom Salts because they were a good/cheap/readily-available form of Mg+, then after realizing they had about as much Su as Mg+, and - again back to the Plant Nutrition wiki - how vital those two micro's are, I just started seeing Epsom as a great product (am not dead-set on it, it's just a means to an end and if there's a better approach I'm eager to take it!!)

I'd suggest that you go to a hydroponics shop and buy some "ph down" for soils. (buy some "ph up" at the same time because you're bound to overshoot the mix at some point) If you're at 8 and you want to go to 6 (in your soil), you might have to overshoot the target for the first couple of waterings... like a 5.

I can't say I'd be very comfortable w/ this approach, it inherently needs me to be able to gauge that I've overshot and @Leo in N E Illinois made it pretty clear how useless any at-home testing of pH is, so if going the "pH down" route (quite possible) I wouldn't approach it as a quick-fix and over-shoot I'd just do a conservative approach til I thought I was more in-range of 6, the minerals' uptake-rate by pH is a sliding-scale so if my water is ~8pH and I can even bring it down to 7 I'll be making a big difference yknow?

I'd take MH7's advice and simply buy bougain ... if I could get it here, I'd use that for a year before making any changes.

No way, that's really not the type of fertilizer I need I'm trying to grow-out & develop stock/pre-bonsai bougies, I hate when they bloom because I strive to keep them in vegetative growth (as they're being developed, eventually I'll be happy to let them bloom at a time that's not during winter/dormancy ;D ), bougain's macros have nitro as the lowest, it's a 'bloom type' fertilizer really, and even that aside I can't say I agree w/ @milehigh_7 that it's that great I mean it's only got 1% Mg+ and 0% Su? That's not complete, unless sulfur is part of / bound to something in there and I'm missing it...Would be interested in @Leo in N E Illinois 's thoughts on Bougain fertilzer, to me it's wayyy too-little nitro, too much phos/potassium, and is just not a 'complete' anyways so would still need supplementing (maybe I'm off-base, made sure to tag leo/MH7 so they can correct me if/where I've err'ed (erred? That doesn't sound right..))

AND, if after a short period of time your boug isn't looking great in FL., I'd start looking at the possibility of root diseases...

God don't even say that! lol ;D
My bougs do look great thankfully, I only had a few chloritic ones (or did, nothing chloritic now - much of that was pruning though) but I know (or highly expect) they were chloritic due to being in all-perlite that required me to give them extra doses of 7.98pH tap-water (causing a lock-out on Fe absorption) )
But yeah generally-speaking my bougies are doing great, they all grow like crazy, they handle most-anything I do to them, I have some that were just "jammed a hardwood stick in the ground" ones that were in high-traffic spots that grew, get stepped-on and I'm sure it's dead, then see it's still alive.....they're virtually un-killable lol, I've got around 45-50 of them and don't think I've taken a single loss on a bougie if I got it to take-root (my losses for collections are 0%, and for hardwood cuttings I probably get 85%+ and that's half-assing it I long-ago gave up on using IBA or any special treatment, I'll just prepare a patch on the ground as a 'cuttings bed' to stick stuff in after pruning my larger ones!)

 

[SU2]

If that's the case, their results are based on luck.

While someone w/ good bougies /= "their pH is optimal", I wouldn't go so far as saying "w/o knowing pH, any success w/ bougies is pure 100% luck", neither extreme is the case but what's practically relevant is that using other locals' bougies as a pH yardstick is just not going to get me anything useful (at least I highly doubt it - hell, how would I even test it? At-home pH testing is basically useless, so how would I - or the people I'd be assessing to do such a survey - going to be able to get accurate-enough #'s to be useful for any analysis? Of course that's before the millions of confounding variables, many of which - moisture, sunlight - could be manipulated enough to be far bigger impacts than pH)

Guess what bark does, it lowers the pH.

Exactly! I'm going to find a chart/index of substrate-pH's because IIRC sphagnum is more acidic than bark (and I want to use the most acidic!) Am going to be swapping-out some of my basically-inert DE granules for some acidic organics, and upping perlite/lava rock to balance the water retention of the mix )

However, as bougie roots can be susceptible to fungus (really the roots are the only sensitive thing on bougs) too much organic is a really bad idea.

You'll have to unpack that a bit for me because I'm not seeing it that way....bougies' roots don't like being overly-wet, we know that keeping them moist can help keep them vegetative (dryness, tight containers, etc there's several types of stressors that can pretty reliably induce a bougie to flower), but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing your logic here... You mention their roots are sensitive (I've noticed this, they break easily especially where they connect to the trunk-base), however in collecting tons of them from the ground I've found far more mycorrhizal fungi w/ them than w/ other trees and have read in many places that bougies are especially reliant upon this symbiotic fungi relationship - if anything I'd think a bougie would benefit much more than other species from having a higher% organics (this is, of course, on the premise that the substrate is still 'proper'/modern ie large-particle, fast/immediate draining, etc etc. You'd be watering less-frequently w/ more organics, obviously, but that doesn't mean you'd be water-logging it which is the real concern w/ bougie roots)


[I've been trying to devour & learn as much as possible about bougies this past year, lots of real life experience, but it's so limited that I could easily miss things so if anything above^ is inaccurate or off-base in any way I'd truly appreciate being corrected!!]

 

[SU2]

Also if you can get Sul Po Mag (Langbeinite), I prefer it to Epsom salts because it does not raise the salinity the way that Epsom salts do.

Never heard of the stuff, will check it out though! Could you elaborate on salinity in this context? Can't say I've got the first inkling of salinity in my substrate, the significance of it in general or how significant a change epsom salts would cause!

As I mentioned up-thread, I'm certainly not dead-set on using epsom salts, I'd only gotten them because, after reading the Plant Nutrition wiki, I came away thinking "damn I can't believe I've been depriving them of Mg+ so badly!" and epsom salts were the easiest/cheapest thing to get right away. I then found it contained even more sulfur(13%) than Mg+ (10%) and, after reading that wiki, knew Su was very important as well and, once again, completely absent from my fertilizers! Then I got the idea that its Su content could actually be useful in terms of lowering my pH (tap-water@7.98pH) so was even more sold on the stuff, but if there's a better approach I'm happy to change to it!

I see you recommend bougain a lot but I'm trying to grow-out trees in development and, aside from lacking essentials like Su, Bougain is a bloom fertilizer, if I were to get & use that and put down the nitro #'s that I want, I'd be absolutely overwhelming the trees w/ so much excessive phosphate/potassium...I think bougain, fortified w/ some micros, would be a fantastic bloom fert though (the 1% Mg+ seems very low but I assume that's probably a flowering thing, the iron is right where I'd like it)


[edit- damn I just checked out Langbeinite- 22% potassium oxide, 11% magnesium and 22% sulfur - that potassium would put this on the no-use list IMO, I mean not for purposes of Mg+ or Su fortification! If I wanted to up my potassium though it seems a great way!]

 

[Random User]

"My bougs do look great thankfully"

... then I might suggest that you are looking for an answer to which a problem doesn't exist.

 

[SU2]

"My bougs do look great thankfully"

... then I might suggest that you are looking for an answer to which a problem doesn't exist.

There is a problem if they're growing at 70% the rate they could be growing due to limiting factors (ie pH being so high that it can't get enough iron absorbed to conduct optimal photosynthesis!)

'Problem' is relative, I'm not trying to fix a massive problem my problem is with sub-optimal growth!

[edited-to-add: as mentioned I did have some bougies w/ chlorosis, and while I've been able to figure-out the likely culprit- iron deficiency due to too-high pH causing lock-out - it still means that I'm watering this acid loving plant with a 7.98pH water source, that's a problem if maximizing growth is the objective!]

 

[Random User]

"it still means that I'm watering this acid loving plant with a 7.98pH water source"

Then I would suggest that you buy a Bluelab PH pen and ph-down (along with ph-up), add your desired nutes to the mix, and "bubble" your blend over night with an aquarium air pump... recheck your ph in the morning before watering and allow the plant(s) sufficient time to tell you how it likes the change... it seems to have made a significant difference for me, but what you can expect for "normal growth rate" outdoors in FL, would be totally different than I could expect to see here in the frozen north, huddled in the basement of my house.

As I stated before, watching the ph seems to have made a huge difference for me (so I think you're on the right track, personally). I still have to be watchful of signs that a deficiency has reappeared. My boug has been a huge PITA, and I'd trade it for a BRT any day... but if I can get this thing figured out once and for all, it would go along way to upgrading my horticultural skills for all plants, so I'm not overly willing to give up on it too soon.

As a last comment, I (personally) would be willing to give up some "growth rate", for health on any plant, any day.

Good luck!

 

[GrimLore]

There is a problem if they're growing at 70% the rate they could be growing due to limiting factors (ie pH being so high that it can't get enough iron absorbed to conduct optimal photosynthesis!)

'Problem' is relative, I'm not trying to fix a massive problem my problem is with sub-optimal growth!

[edited-to-add: as mentioned I did have some bougies w/ chlorosis, and while I've been able to figure-out the likely culprit- iron deficiency due to too-high pH causing lock-out - it still means that I'm watering this acid loving plant with a 7.98pH water source, that's a problem if maximizing growth is the objective!]

Reality check if you don't mind

If you want your Bougie to have vigorous trunk, branching, and leaf -

Grow it in a maximum of 2 hours Eastern Sun daily...

Why?

That's how Southern growers do it, increase the size a lot in a short period of time BUT in reality they do not trunk up as quickly as trees do in excellent conditions, therefore you do not see heavy trunk plants from growers... The bad ass wide trunk specimens you see are VERY old - unless you are 10 you will never grow a 5 inch wide base in your lifetime if everything is perfect. They are a shrub and grow like most others...

On the subject of acidity, substrate, and your water -

Any substrate non organic like DE will be just fine, your water, and the fact you have to water them 2 to 4 times a day depending on the heat... The plants you have do NOT care about what is posted about "perfect" acidity as long as they get some

Just for the record, with your water and proper light exposure, roots exposed to air via water they do not need any substrate, yes I said none if you can water... . And while on the subject growing them in marbles is fine as long as the water(decent ph) and lower exposure to direct sun will provide good growth.

Added -

Cutting the blooms will not help or hinder growth - anyone that tells you that about any shrub is hands down "Full of Shit" and if you want good growth understand your plant. Easy but easily friggin misinterpreted on the net for thousands of plants... Talk to growers and the World becomes a nicer place for you and your plants

Grimmy

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Wow, a lot of questions there. I'll try to re-read your posts, since my last, and comment, but it likely won't be until Monday.

Question? How difficult or easy would it be to collect rain water for your bougies? Even if you only water half the time with rain water it would help with the pH problem.

 

[SU2]

Thanks for the thorough reply!!

Reality check if you don't mind

I mean, anything that's not is nonsense, is the implication that I'm la-la land? Have only been doing this a year and am trying in earnest to learn as much as possible but no of course I'm just interested in reality- I truly do want my trees growing healthy lol!!

Reality check if you don't mind

If you want your Bougie to have vigorous trunk, branching, and leaf -

Grow it in a maximum of 2 hours Eastern Sun daily...

Why?

That's how Southern growers do it, increase the size a lot in a short period of time BUT in reality they do not trunk up as quickly as trees do in excellent conditions, therefore you do not see heavy trunk plants from growers..

I'm unsure what you mean about 'eastern sun', the sun is only coming from the east before high-noon (after which it starts coming from the west), the inclusion of that confuses me but am intrigued why you specified it like that?

And to the meat of that passage, am I correct in interpreting it that the idea is that this restricted sun-exposure causes a growth pattern of vigorous trunk/branching/leaf? Am confused because you started with that and then say "BUT in reality they do not trunk up as quickly as trees do in excellent conditions", am uncertain whether you're advocating for restricting sunlight or making a distinction in types of growth patterns based on sunlight....in any case though, full sunlight is best for bougies' growth in terms of trunk/branching/leaf, unless we get kind of pedantic and say 'too quick growth causes longer internodes which isn't 'best' for growth', but that'd only apply to trees in refinement not in-development specimen like I've got.

In terms of general vegetative growth-rate though, full-sun is certainly the optimal amount in my area (in fact bougies like full-sun as cuttings, I take 1"+ bougie 'sticks' and jam them in the ground all the time and get potted-specimen a few months later, once the summer gets cooking I'm planning to bump my #'s by dozens so that I can get rid of some of my lesser specimen, am doing the fixed-# of trees approach and plan to just replace my worst trees w/ better ones til my garden's full of great stock/pre-'s!!)
80% sun bed & close-up of some sticks:
&

(and FWIW I do speak to southern bougie growers, read tons of their writings (repeatedly, have read many articles 5-10x+ and have countless .doc notes), watch anything by bonsai iligan/adamaskwhy/etc actually have been getting help by adam since I started even met him at a workshop once But yeah the only sunlight-recommendation I've heard - and found to work in my garden - for bougies is full sun, if you're talking about growth whether vegetative, reproductive/flowering, or budding of a cutting!)

The bad ass wide trunk specimens you see are VERY old - unless you are 10 you will never grow a 5 inch wide base in your lifetime if everything is perfect. They are a shrub and grow like most others...

For sure! When I say that my trees are 'in development' I can see how that could be taken as "I'm trying to grow-out trunks" - I am not. I approach bougies as-if the trunk I start with is the trunk the final-product will have, I've got several bougies with trunks >1' (and that's not me being liberal counting nebari and stuff, I mean I've got some gigantic stumps lol!!), and the stuff I propagate is hardwood only and only if I think that, once rooted, I can develop a canopy on that trunk as that trunk is at the time, I really am approaching it as a 'canopy building' venture and when I speak of 'development' I'm talking primary/secondary branches' girth, for many of my bougs I'm really just aiming to get 2-3 rounds of really good, legitimate taper (ie significant differences in thickness from a branch to the two branches it splits into), and am then going to do more of a pinch&grow/topiary-clipping approach a la Erik Wigert's approach, this type of approach is, sadly, the only half-decent one for a lot of my material due to how over-sized it is, how large/wide the trunk-chop cuts are, lots of 'flat top' material that I basically just use grinders to try and taper-into my primaries to give some contour, for example it's going to take at least another year's growth & some skilled carving to get anywhere w/ this guy:
[should note that this is almost precisely the 5" width you mention at base- this is hardwood cutting rooted last summer that's got 2 spots on the trunk that put out shoots, once it's more established I'll be removing the lower shoots from either side // sawing-off the top // carving a V between the two 'primaries' on either side of this truncheon!

gotta love bougies, this is a ~1' tall 'club' I sawed-off a larger section of bougie someone had left at the curb, I stuck it 4" deep into perlite - this was when I was still just trying to see how far I could push them in propagation - it did take weeks (instead of the normal 5-8d for bougies to back-bud during growing-season) but is close to 1yr old now!]

On the subject of acidity, substrate, and your water -

Any substrate non organic like DE will be just fine, your water, and the fact you have to water them 2 to 4 times a day depending on the heat... The plants you have do NOT care about what is posted about "perfect" acidity as long as they get some

As long as they get some what? And while I agree they don't 'care', it's not helpful to belittle the concept of acidity, the #'s are clear that pH is significantly influential in the absorption of key nutrients and, w/o such nutes being available at the rate the tree wants, it will grow slower/sub-optimally, there's just no way around that. And actually it seems slightly acidic is best/optimal for a majority of tree species (maybe that's just me seeing the results of trees I'd consider, so could be a biased observation), but for bougies they prefer acidic way more than most do - that's a fact and it's a fact that my water is quite basic for tap-water (almost 8pH) so it's really a foregone conclusion that if I instead start using distilled water, or get pH-Down drops and prepare my water to be 6.5pH as a general rule, and change absolutely nothing else, my bougies will be healthier and grow quicker - if you think any of that is wrong I'd really appreciate to be corrected!! I haven't bought the pH-Down yet but have every intention of doing so and do believe it'll make a noticeable difference (I've had 2 very chloritic bougies and it seems the reason was simply that they were being over-watered with my 8pH tap-water which would explain chlorosis as well as my inability to treat it w/ iron, w/ magnesium, etc all as individual treatment approaches)

Just for the record, with your water and proper light exposure, roots exposed to air via water they do not need any substrate, yes I said none if you can water... . And while on the subject growing them in marbles is fine as long as the water(decent ph) and lower exposure to direct sun will provide good growth.

Am unsure what you're getting at here but for sure you can grow on hard, inert substrates so long as you've setup a proper drip-system or other means of ensuring moisture in the root-zone! I'm actually of the mindset that spherical LECA spheres may be the 'optimal' growing media for most trees (varied-sized particles based upon specie, of course), at least most deciduous broadleafs, have been meaning to get some to start messing with them (maybe me finally getting to a hydro store - to get the pH-Down product - will put me in touch w/ the LECA spheres!)

Added -

Cutting the blooms will not help or hinder growth - anyone that tells you that about any shrub is hands down "Full of Shit" and if you want good growth understand your plant. Easy but easily friggin misinterpreted on the net for thousands of plants... Talk to growers and the World becomes a nicer place for you and your plants

Grimmy

Well bougies are distinct from other flowering shrubs in that they have a repeated annual cycle of flowering-phase/vegetative-phase that just repeats over&over, and these phases are distinct, you're not getting vegetative growth (or almost 0) while in a flowering-phase, so removing flower axils as they appear* does, in the case of bougies, help 'neuter' and nullify a flowering phase (hard-pruning will have this effect as well most of the time, I mean I have had instances where I hard-pruned and it tried flowering on new/small growth but typically a hard-prune will also stop a 'flowering-phase', and these phases are 4-6wks long and can take 50% of the year altogether, so negating/lessening them is absolutely a worthwhile endeavour!!
(*there's another approach which I've been trying to peg-down fully and am starting to practice on some branches, which is defoliating leaves on the mid/lower portions of the branch/shoot, to encourage side-branching - this is done so that, once the terminal of the master shoot starts to flower, you can cut-back to the new 'leader' you got from a lower node after defoliating it)

 

[GrimLore]

Well bougies are distinct from other flowering shrubs in that they have a repeated annual cycle of flowering-phase/vegetative-phase that just repeats over&over, and these phases are distinct, you're not getting vegetative growth (or almost 0) while in a flowering-phase, so removing flower axils as they appear* does, in the case of bougies, help 'neuter' and nullify a flowering phase (hard-pruning will have this effect as well most of the time, I mean I have had instances where I hard-pruned and it tried flowering on new/small growth but typically a hard-prune will also stop a 'flowering-phase', and these phases are 4-6wks long and can take 50% of the year altogether, so negating/lessening them is absolutely a worthwhile endeavour!!
(*there's another approach which I've been trying to peg-down fully and am starting to practice on some branches, which is defoliating leaves on the mid/lower portions of the branch/shoot, to encourage side-branching - this is done so that, once the terminal of the master shoot starts to flower, you can cut-back to the new 'leader' you got from a lower node after defoliating it)

Too many previous questions for me to comment on individually - that is best done on the phone in a 15 minute or so call, PM if interested.

To answer the above I can only state that annual blooms only occur when the plant is stationary in an area that gets different amount of Sun according to the Season, an established growth pattern. You can actually force more blooms in that situation bit a total other conversation.

As an example one that Crystal has here blooms every late Spring as it is treated the same indoors every year BUT when it is outside in the Summer and Fall I force blooms just because she likes them. As far as growth itself it get chopped down a lot every year to fit in the door and plant room - even taking it out of the shaded area to force more blooms does not hinder growth...

Grimmy

 

[SU2]

even taking it out of the shaded area to force more blooms does not hinder growth...

Grimmy

This sounds like you're saying you can take a bougie and get growth while flowering (something bougies don't do as far as I've read or seen - there may be the tiniest amounts of growth but it's of no practical significance, for instance the one that I used for my avatar picture here flowered like that for close to 2 months, during those months it didn't grow at all it simply develops flowers, that distinct 'flowering phase'/'vegetative phase' cycle that bougies go through)

(and I appreciate the offer for phone discussion but I learn terribly that way and would have to record it / re-listen lol, written discussion is my go-to because I can re-read my threads several times to make sure I've gotten everything, and I literally do go back and re-read my threads when I've got nothing else to post, if i'm just 'bonsai browsing' half of it is looking at new stuff/sites and half is re-reading my threads here & on reddit ;P )