Longevity of a compact branch: back buds and limits?

[River's Edge]

Another is to compress the long branches by wiring and bending the bare section thus reducing the effective overall length.

The whole right side of this shore pine is a compacted branch brought from one area in a circle to fill in. This helps temporarily while the interior is developed further. But it is rarely a long term solution due to the thickness of said branches.
This technique that Shibui suggests works well on developing nursery stock or younger branches, rarely on collected yamadori unless a very bendable species like Shore Pine. And even then without great care it can do a lot of damage to aged bark. So one needs to be sure that the branch will be reduced a lot in the future or it can be done without damage!

 

[Yugen]

Not really, very small shore pine can have bark that looks aged, just like the small branches on that tree. Actually that one looks pretty young in the branch structure and trunk compared to most. But like the one I posted it takes quite a while to get the density required to form pads as Adair suggests. Mine will require four or five years more to get enough back budding from cutback to begin to form layers and depth to the pads. And as indicated I have begun grafting in some areas to bring it along faster. Yours is a much younger tree with smaller branches and should respond even quicker.

I'm surprised you consider this tree small as it's around three feet tall above the soil line! It's good to know that it's ripe for grafting. Is there a certain grafting method that you would suggest?

 

[River's Edge]

I'm surprised you consider this tree small as it's around three feet tall above the soil line! It's good to know that it's ripe for grafting. Is there a certain grafting method that you would suggest?

I believe I stated small trees can have bark like that, also that the branches appeared small or thinner and thus younger to deal with. The overall size does not matter for grafting. Growth patterns vary wildly depending on collection site. Shore pine can grow quickly in the right conditions. Small stunted trees can have much thicker bark formed over a very long time. The tree I posted is approximately 18 inches with very thick plated bark and deadwood formed over a very long time.

Your tree also appears to have foliage on the branches closer to the trunk, Not the normal in much older trees, they typically have foliage only on the outer tips with long areas bare within the interior. Not a bad thing, actually much easier to develop, and much quicker to refine. Please keep in mind that it is much easier to comment and understand a tree when it is actually present rather than a picture. However I have collected and seen a lot of shore pine.

I have only used one specific method for grafting shore pine due to the typical size of the possible scions and the bark characteristics of the species.
I prepare the scions by reducing the spring candles by half and using the subsequent growth for a scion in March/April of the following year. This is called a scion graft. I would not suggest an approach graft for this species. The thin shoots would be very difficult to deal with and shoot length almost impossible to use in an approach setting. I think the result would also be difficult to conceal for a very long time.

Here is an example of a small tee that has bark like that, it is a very young tree with lots of foliage and small branches. The tree is less than 12 inches tall. I have also included a close up of the bark,

 

[Yugen]

Understandable that seeing a tree in the flesh is leagues different from a 2 dimensional image. I think my wiring job made it a bit misleading. Here's a new pic showing the massive bare areas. I took the wire off a month ago. The branches didn't really set, but I didn't want wire bite in...maybe I have to let some wire bite??

I'll look up scion grafting. It still seems so intimidating!! Sounds like it's a two year process. I'll start experiments right away with another collected pine that needs grafting in worst of ways

 

[River's Edge]

Understandable that seeing a tree in the flesh is leagues different from a 2 dimensional image. I think my wiring job made it a bit misleading. Here's a new pic showing the massive bare areas. I took the wire off a month ago. The branches didn't really set, but I didn't want wire bite in...maybe I have to let some wire bite??

I'll look up scion grafting. It still seems so intimidating!! Sounds like it's a two year process. I'll start experiments right away with another collected pine that needs grafting in worst of ways

Wire if properly applied will need to be left on a collected tree like that for approximately two years to be effective. Shore pines are very springy, flexible so it is necessary to create minor fissures and breaks when wiring, then when sufficient new wood is produced the shape will set. With the outer bark of shore pine it is not likely it will bite in, but more care is needed in the application. I would also suggest copper wire if you wish to get branches to hold position. Aluminum has too much give and will not set itself in position as firmly as copper.
In my opinion that tree will definitely need to be grafted in order to develop the interior and refine for display purposes! Unless you wish to keep the natural look as collected. If you would rather not experiment, you can contact me through my website for hands on instruction seeing as you live in my area.
Your tree would need more foliage in order to remove the number of scions required. Likely best to stage over a number of years and keep the tree real healthy during the process. Once again easier to judge if the tree was sitting on a turntable in front of me.

 

[Adair M]

Understandable that seeing a tree in the flesh is leagues different from a 2 dimensional image. I think my wiring job made it a bit misleading. Here's a new pic showing the massive bare areas. I took the wire off a month ago. The branches didn't really set, but I didn't want wire bite in...maybe I have to let some wire bite??

I'll look up scion grafting. It still seems so intimidating!! Sounds like it's a two year process. I'll start experiments right away with another collected pine that needs grafting in worst of ways

Wiring is not a “once and done” kind of job. It’s a process. Wire, leave it on a couple years, take it off, wire it again. Rinse and repeat. And with pines, every year the new growth grows straight up. And will need to be wired down at some point. Wiring is more akin to lawn maintenance!

 

[Yugen]

Wire if properly applied will need to be left on a collected tree like that for approximately two years to be effective. Shore pines are very springy, flexible so it is necessary to create minor fissures and breaks when wiring, then when sufficient new wood is produced the shape will set. With the outer bark of shore pine it is not likely it will bite in, but more care is needed in the application. I would also suggest copper wire if you wish to get branches to hold position. Aluminum has too much give and will not set itself in position as firmly as copper.
In my opinion that tree will definitely need to be grafted in order to develop the interior and refine for display purposes! Unless you wish to keep the natural look as collected. If you would rather not experiment, you can contact me through my website for hands on instruction seeing as you live in my area.
Your tree would need more foliage in order to remove the number of scions required. Likely best to stage over a number of years and keep the tree real healthy during the process. Once again easier to judge if the tree was sitting on a turntable in front of me.

I might have to take you up on the grafting lessons! I guess covid makes it hard this year, but maybe next spring?

@Adair M I understand that the wire is a long term game. When you say the wire needs to be on for years, one would still remove the wire in the spring time and reapply in the fall, correct? Otherwise don't you get massive and permanent wire bite??

 

[River's Edge]

I might have to take you up on the grafting lessons! I guess covid makes it hard this year, but maybe next spring?

@Adair M I understand that the wire is a long term game. When you say the wire needs to be on for years, one would still remove the wire in the spring time and reapply in the fall, correct? Otherwise don't you get massive and permanent wire bite??

Incorrect, the wire remains until it is time to remove based on the amount it is beginning to bite into the branch, or if the branch has fixed in position. in some cases wire can remain in place for two years and then be replaced with new wire positioned slightly differently, in other cases the wire can need replacing in a matter of weeks! For example creating movement in young fast growing JBP or similar trees!
Trees typically do not add a lot of girth after the fall spurt. If it is not dug in in October, it is not likely to be any further in the early spring! This of course is climate dependant but is the case on Vancouver Island.

 

[Yugen]

Incorrect, the wire remains until it is time to remove based on the amount it is beginning to bite into the branch, or if the branch has fixed in position. in some cases wire can remain in place for two years and then be replaced with new wire positioned slightly differently, in other cases the wire can need replacing in a matter of weeks! For example creating movement in young fast growing JBP or similar trees!
Trees typically do not add a lot of girth after the fall spurt. If it is not dug in in October, it is not likely to be any further in the early spring! This of course is climate dependant but is the case on Vancouver Island.

Intriguing! From my limited experience I've seen wire bite set in a month to a season. I think I am over cautious about wire bite. For me, there's nothing worse than wire bite scars. It's my understanding that limbs thicken up primarily in the late summer to fall? I yearn to know more about this, as in, how much wire bite is ok, and what the signs are that it needs to be removed soon or asap. Maybe this needs its own thread?

My current regiment is to apply wire in the fall. Im still looking to hone in on the best time, as in what signs indicate the end of vascular growth. Then I leave the wire on until April to May. So that's like 7 months! It's hard to tell if the branch has fixed into position unless I take the wire off, so it's a guessing game, which I don't like.

 

[Adair M]

I might have to take you up on the grafting lessons! I guess covid makes it hard this year, but maybe next spring?

@Adair M I understand that the wire is a long term game. When you say the wire needs to be on for years, one would still remove the wire in the spring time and reapply in the fall, correct? Otherwise don't you get massive and permanent wire bite??

It depends on how much the tree is growing.

Remove the wire before large scars form. If the wire starts to look like it’s “flat” on the side where it’s touching the branch, that means the branch has thickened and is growing around the wire. Remove it. No matter what season it is.

Remember, it’s not the wire “cutting in”. Rather, it’s the tree expanding, and the wire is in the way.

 

[River's Edge]

Remove the wire before large scars form. If the wire starts to look like it’s “flat” on the side where it’s touching the branch, that means the branch has thickened and is growing around the wire. Remove it. No matter what season it is.

And remember that even when removed, it may be best to reapply immediately in a slightly different position. Particularly with very springy trees. Hemlock and Shore Pine are two examples of this! One needs to be way more cautious of wire marks in Sub Alpine Fir! the softer bark marks much more quickly! Al three species tree very different from JBP.

 

[Yugen]

And remember that even when removed, it may be best to reapply immediately in a slightly different position. Particularly with very springy trees. Hemlock and Shore Pine are two examples of this! One needs to be way more cautious of wire marks in Sub Alpine Fir! the softer bark marks much more quickly! Al three species tree very different from JBP.

I did have a lot of springy action this spring. Maybe I should rewire the hemlocks and shore pine. When in the season do the branches thicken up? Hard for me to conceptualize having wire on a branch during the peak of wood formation. Do you have a good source for copper wire?

 

[Vance Wood]

I've come to a wall in my understanding of how, in the long run, to have a branch with compact foliage. By compact foliage I don't mean ramification, per say. I'm referring to having foliage on a branch that is closer to the trunk of the tree as opposed to growth near the tips of branches.

I understand the principal of ramification. Cut at back buds and reduce to two. Rinse and repeat.

This should apply to all my pines (maybe all trees in general?), but to hone in on my personal dilemma: I have a few older yamadori shore pines. Take one in particular that is approx. 100 year old. Its in good health and has been off the mountain and in a training pot for 5 years. It's lower branches are about ten inches long which display very healthy foliage at the tips of secondary and tertiary branches. There are back buds, but they are all clustered within a few centimetres to a couple inches of the growing areas.

From what I've researched it is likely to get back buds further back on the branch; however, I've been told to not expect back budding on wood that is over 6-ish years old. Well these primary and secondary branches could easily be 10+ years old. In any case, if I reduce foliage steadily, the back buds will only form so far away from the growing tip. And the longer this gradual process takes, the older the primary and secondary branches become. It seems like its a case of diminishing pace between the limit of aging branches and stubborn back budding.

I can guess that a centenarian pine might be a harder case, but this should apply to any pine branch that is 10 years and older, no?

Isn't it so that as a pine outgrows it's desired silhouette, that's when we cut off terminal growth and allow the back buds to take their place, right? But how can this process continue, for even a decade, as the primary and secondary branches age and "wood up"?

Additionally, has anyone ever heard of removing scaly bark as to allow cambium a shot at back budding?

You need to engage in proper pruning techniques for the species and the one post floating around will not do it for you.

 

[Adair M]

I did have a lot of springy action this spring. Maybe I should rewire the hemlocks and shore pine. When in the season do the branches thicken up? Hard for me to conceptualize having wire on a branch during the peak of wood formation. Do you have a good source for copper wire?

Actually, you NEED to have wire on the tree during wood formation. New wood production is what hold the branch into the new position. If the new wood is allowed to grow straight, and then bent after it’s matured, when you remove the wire, it’s likely to return to the old position. It’s the new cells growing into the new orientation that holds.

It’s a but its a trade off. Having wire on when the tree is thickening holds the new position. Yet, it can create wire scars. Remove the wire before scarring, the wire hadn’t done anything!

The reality of it is you carefully monitor it. If the wire begins to cut in, remove it. Possibly rewire, just position the new wire a little differently.

This is also why some minor degree of wire scarring is acceptable. Much like brushstrokes on an oil painting. We want to minimize the wire scars, of course.

 

[Adair M]

And remember that even when removed, it may be best to reapply immediately in a slightly different position. Particularly with very springy trees. Hemlock and Shore Pine are two examples of this! One needs to be way more cautious of wire marks in Sub Alpine Fir! the softer bark marks much more quickly! Al three species tree very different from JBP.

Atlas Cedar is also very springy, and Ponderosa Pine.

Japanese White Pine takes wire well, but the juvenile bark persists for decades, and if the wire is left in too long, the wire scars will persist for 20 years or more!

 

[River's Edge]

I did have a lot of springy action this spring. Maybe I should rewire the hemlocks and shore pine. When in the season do the branches thicken up? Hard for me to conceptualize having wire on a branch during the peak of wood formation. Do you have a good source for copper wire?

If new wood forms without wire in place then the branch will remain the same shape and no movement will be added!
I purchase my copper wire from the USA when travelling in California, I stop in to see Jim Gremel.
There are a number of online sources, the issue is exchange and shipping like any product purchased in the USA.

 

[Yugen]

You need to engage in proper pruning techniques for the species and the one post floating around will not do it for you.

A tree can be pruned to the best standard but the issue prevails. As the branch ages it accepts less and less back budding. The only solution I have heard so far it to graft. I'm open to any other suggestions

 

[Yugen]

Actually, you NEED to have wire on the tree during wood formation. New wood production is what hold the branch into the new position. If the new wood is allowed to grow straight, and then bent after it’s matured, when you remove the wire, it’s likely to return to the old position. It’s the new cells growing into the new orientation that holds.

It’s a but its a trade off. Having wire on when the tree is thickening holds the new position. Yet, it can create wire scars. Remove the wire before scarring, the wire hadn’t done anything!

The reality of it is you carefully monitor it. If the wire begins to cut in, remove it. Possibly rewire, just position the new wire a little differently.

This is also why some minor degree of wire scarring is acceptable. Much like brushstrokes on an oil painting. We want to minimize the wire scars, of course.

Ok that makes a ton of sense. If wire should be on during wood formation, what time of year is that primary for conifers?

 

[Adair M]

Ok that makes a ton of sense. If wire should be on during wood formation, what time of year is that primary for conifers?

Pretty much all year!

Here’s the deal: for most conifers, the best time to wire us in the fall. Why? Well, that’s when you’re least likely to damage the tree when you’re applying the wire. Junipers, for example, have their cambium layers turgid with water during the summer. It’s really easy to accidentally delaminate a juniper if you wire in the summer. In fall, the tree prepares for winter by gardening up the bark and cambium, removing the sap. The bark becomes very tightly attached to the heartwood. So, wiring and bending don’t separate the cambium off the heartwood like it would during the summer.

For pines, the needles are very easily damaged while they are growing. If you wait until they are “hardened off”, you can manipulate the branches without damaging them. That’s fall.

See the pattern here? So, fall is the best time to apply wire. Then check it to make sure it hasn’t cut in.

Now, if you become very skilled in wiring, then you can apply wire “any time”. And the pros can and will. But even they would say “the best time” is in the fall.

 

[Yugen]

@Adair M God damn thats a delicious reply!!! One caveat, I assume spring/summer wire will potentially prevent back buds from forming, at least directly where the wire is placed. This could be detrimental, or, maybe this can be used as a way to dictate where you want back buds to pop up?