Liquid fertilizer killing moss?

[WNC Bonsai]

The moss comes from walkways around the garden and the north side of an often moist stone training wall. I pick the moss and try to heal it before application by transfering to a drip tray with holes and pumice, then once established I transfer clods to the tree. I've yet to try Ryan Neil's way of using ground up green moss mixed with spagnum..

It sounds like you are using shade moss for your trees, but are your trees growing in shade or sun? Moss for trees grown in sun needs to come from a similar environment. if you look around you can find moss that will survive in sunny conditions. Match the type of moss to your environment.

 

[Yugen]

It sounds like you are using shade moss for your trees, but are your trees growing in shade or sun? Moss for trees grown in sun needs to come from a similar environment. if you look around you can find moss that will survive in sunny conditions. Match the type of moss to your environment.

The moss I collect from sunny areas and shady areas seems to be the same, its just that the shady areas are always more bumping. Thats also why i collect moss then put it in a trainer tray of pumice so it can adjust to the extra light and water. Additionally, training on pumice means that when the moss is ready to go in the bonsai pots, i dont have to rip out the mosses roots again. Just pick and plunk.
I guess even sunny moss goes dormant during peak summer conditions.

All my trees are in sun

 

[Acer palNATEum]

That's baloney. Chemicals are chemicals, no matter how they are bottled. Fish fertilizer is just stinkier, that's all.

This is absolutely not true and borderline dangerous (to the beginners) to even post somewhere like here.

The same chemical is the same chemical that is true...but this example is far from the same chemical being applied to the trees. Typically a 10-10-10 chemical fertilizer will be nitrate based, whereas fish emulsion/organic based fertilizers are "ammonia" based. This is not to even mention the slow breakdown of complex proteins and amino acids in fish emulsion.

Basically if ported to human nutrition, you are equating complex starches (fish emulsion) with table sugar (nitrate fertilizers).

 

[Acer palNATEum]

Is to moss or not to moss the new proxy fight for the soil wars?

I think mossing is highly dependent on your climate and soil preference. Such strong opinions one side or the other are ridiculous. You don't know what the other guy is doing, where they live, what they are growing, etc. If you like moss and it helps you in some way develop the trees, grow it on your trees. If you don't like moss or find it is a hindrance to what you are trying to accomplish, just moss before a show. Simple as that.

I do find there to be huge difference between grown moss and transplanted moss regarding water permeability and ease of caring for the moss. I use biogold and fish emulsion to fertilize. I do see some browning of moss around biogold but it typically recovers after it is removed. I don't see any detrimental moss effects from fish emulsion.

 

[HENDO]

For my plantings that use moss to keep muck from washing away I use these little fertilizer canisters with pellets inside, no liquid fertilizer. It seems to work well for channelling most of the fertilizer into the soils sections below, but you can see where the fertilizer runs down the outside and kills the moss - it regenerates quickly.

The only problem is when the squirrels try to get at the pellets or the residual that's made it's way below the moss

 

[bonsaichile]

This is absolutely not true and borderline dangerous (to the beginners) to even post somewhere like here.

The same chemical is the same chemical that is true...but this example is far from the same chemical being applied to the trees. Typically a 10-10-10 chemical fertilizer will be nitrate based, whereas fish emulsion/organic based fertilizers are "ammonia" based. This is not to even mention the slow breakdown of complex proteins and amino acids in fish emulsion.

Basically if ported to human nutrition, you are equating complex starches (fish emulsion) with table sugar (nitrate fertilizers).

I would NOT eat fish emulsion

 

[bonsaichile]

This is absolutely not true and borderline dangerous (to the beginners) to even post somewhere like here.

The same chemical is the same chemical that is true...but this example is far from the same chemical being applied to the trees. Typically a 10-10-10 chemical fertilizer will be nitrate based, whereas fish emulsion/organic based fertilizers are "ammonia" based. This is not to even mention the slow breakdown of complex proteins and amino acids in fish emulsion.

Basically if ported to human nutrition, you are equating complex starches (fish emulsion) with table sugar (nitrate fertilizers).

Look, the reality is they are both formulated for plant use and they both work. Walter Pall, as far as I understand, uses not only chemical fertilizers, but the cheapest one he can find. You cannot argue with his results. Bottom line: if you use an all inorganic substrate, adding organic fertilizer will only make you have to repot more often than you need due to its break down and it will not provide any advantage for your trees.

 

[Acer palNATEum]

Look, the reality is they are both formulated for plant use and they both work. Walter Pall, as far as I understand, uses not only chemical fertilizers, but the cheapest one he can find. You cannot argue with his results. Bottom line: if you use an all inorganic substrate, adding organic fertilizer will only make you have to repot more often than you need due to its break down and it will not provide any advantage for your trees.

You are arguing most of the same point. Walter Pall's fertilizing method works for him (100s - 1000s of trees), professional bonsai artist, particular climate, doesn't have time to individually micromanage them all but has someone caring for them daily. He also clearly states that he has a very specific way in that he is successful with his fertilizer practice. In his post covering it he talks about how you have to do "all of it" or "none of it" or it doesn't work.

If you use nitrate based fertilizers that is fine...but you should know that you are feeding nutrients that are readily available and easy to access. Fish emulsion and organic fertilizers are not as easy to access and take longer to break down. You have completely different root microbiomes as a result. They both can work in bonsai but not equal and not always one better than the other. It depends no your climate, species grown, care routine, ability/willingness to spray pesticides/fungicides, and etc.

You can scrape off top layer of broken down fertilizers and replace with virgin soil without repotting the whole tree. If this improves percolation then you don't need to repot. If not, and you still need to repot more frequently with organic fertilizers I would argue that is a good thing most of the time because your root growth is probably stronger.

 

[bonsaichile]

You are arguing most of the same point. Walter Pall's fertilizing method works for him (100s - 1000s of trees), professional bonsai artist, particular climate, doesn't have time to individually micromanage them all but has someone caring for them daily. He also clearly states that he has a very specific way in that he is successful with his fertilizer practice. In his post covering it he talks about how you have to do "all of it" or "none of it" or it doesn't work.

If you use nitrate based fertilizers that is fine...but you should know that you are feeding nutrients that are readily available and easy to access. Fish emulsion and organic fertilizers are not as easy to access and take longer to break down. You have completely different root microbiomes as a result. They both can work in bonsai but not equal and not always one better than the other. It depends no your climate, species grown, care routine, ability/willingness to spray pesticides/fungicides, and etc.

You can scrape off top layer of broken down fertilizers and replace with virgin soil without repotting the whole tree. If this improves percolation then you don't need to repot. If not, and you still need to repot more frequently with organic fertilizers I would argue that is a good thing most of the time because your root growth is probably stronger.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Moss that lives in sunny exposures cannot live in shade, and vice-versa. Only shade-tolerant moss will live in a terrarium or on houseplants. They dry up whenever conditions are not moist enough, but do not die from drought. The surface of houseplant soils that are watered once a weel or so is too dry, and the humidity levels inside homes is too low to have moss do anything other than go dormant. Moss have feet, but do not have roots and therefore do not absorb nutrients that way. They absorb elements through their leaves.

 

[M. Frary]

My boy Ryan Neil might have something to say about that.

 

[M. Frary]

My boy Ryan Neil might have something to say about that

Like he knows everything about bonsai right?

 

[Schmikah]

Like he knows everything about bonsai right?

No, but he knows alot more than I do and most people on this forum.

 

[rockm]

Everything in Moderation yeah?

Life, Dying, is a sign of severe imbalance.

Sure, excessive fertilizer gets you Growth, but it is clear, when Life dies, that something is wrong.
The man made product is the common denominator.

The fish made product that man bottles, increases health, resilience, vigour.
This stuff is seen the next year.

That is real strength, health, the beginning bonsai can be crafted on.

Where excessive chemical fert Growth attracts Pests,
Excessive Fish growth prevents them.

Sorce

Um, no...doesn't work that way. "Natural" "organic" isn't ANY better or worse than "chemical" or "man made" Different ferts for different uses. "man made" ferts are not evil. They are not detrimental to growth (excessive growth is in the eye of the beholder. It does not attract pests) Maintaining the myth that "natural" is somehow superior to other options cripples your efforts.

I use both, as the more organic kinds are more constant--but much less effective--for growth...and BTW-- "organic" is a misleading term, as all ferts are processed by humans in some way or another. "Chemical" or "man made" ferts are faster acting and provide more balanced nutrients than organics.

 

[sorce]

better or worse

Big, air quotes.

Ryan Neil (I know) talks about it being like a first line of defense. Sure we usually send them fellers to die anyway....
But it doesn't have to die.

cripples your efforts.

Or hones.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Big, air quotes.

Ryan Neil (I know) talks about it being like a first line of defense. Sure we usually send them fellers to die anyway....
But it doesn't have to die.




Or hones.

Sorce

Source,

Look, I've been doing this for going on 25 years. I've used just about every "natural" fert around, as well as the chemical stuff. One is not any better than the other. One is DEFINITELY more expensive than the other -- on average "natural" stuff brings a higher price tag for less immediate results.

Ryan Neil says a lot of stuff. I tend to take a lot of it with a grain of salt. Seen him in demos. He's very engaging in person. Knows what he's talking about. But he has very little experience with species and practices outside of the Northwest. Some of his advice on some things, is, well, a bit bent towards his particular way of growing things. What works for him in the PNW, doesn't cut it in other locations. Moss (FWIW), doesn't "die" here in the south in full sun. It goes dormant turning brown and crispy in the sun for the summer. Trying to keep it "alive" in that time is futile and will kill the tree beneath it, for the most part. It comes back in the fall as it cools off and rain returns.

Moss is moss. It comes and goes. It is not a "first line" of anything. It is an opportunistic, fleeting companion to bonsai. If you're using moss as an indicator of your tree's health, you're looking in the wrong direction and possibly harming your tree.

Trying to actively cultivate moss is silly. I'd bet Ryan doesn't have to do anything to keep moss alive up in wet, rainy, cool coastal rainforest...

 

[sorce]

salt

I don't care about Ryan Neil as a Deity like some.

Organic Fertilizer can be made in the backyard.

Not trying to cultivate moss with this conversation.

It's just outright stupid to pour something on a tree that visibly causes death of anything of any kind.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I don't care about Ryan Neil as a Deity like some.

Organic Fertilizer can be made in the backyard.

Not trying to cultivate moss with this conversation.

It's just outright stupid to pour something on a tree that visibly causes death of anything of any kind.

Sorce

The tree isn't dead. FWIW, "organic" fertilizers are capable of killing plenty. Ever see runoff from a pig farm? Nitrogen is Nitrogen. Microenvironments are inherently unstable. The rush to saye whatever you poured on it killed it, is a pretty naïve read on the situation. A lot of stuff, including user error (90 percent of mistakes in bonsai are this) can contribute. I've never seen chemical fertilizer kill moss.

 

[AJL]

Ive seen farmers spraying liquid slurry on their fields in Scotland .Next day there were millions of dead earthworms all over the field , right next to a salmon river Now 3 years later that salmon river has no salmon
Dont try to kid yourself that Organic fertiliser is always benign !!

 

[Forsoothe!]

There's a very big difference between tweaking for growth (good) and ignoring the fine points of the chemistry of the land (bad). The source of the material doesn't matter.