Rob_phillips
Chumono
A few more close ups
Learn to create mame
- Thread starter Rob_phillips
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Rob_phillips
Chumono
Any one have any advice on the next steps after its vigor and im happy it is healthy.
Could I do a repot on this tree now at the end of August in the uk as it is very root bound and in very poor soil my experience with elms is limited but it's probably just treat the same as any decidiouse tree.
Could I do a repot on this tree now at the end of August in the uk as it is very root bound and in very poor soil my experience with elms is limited but it's probably just treat the same as any decidiouse tree.
aml1014
Masterpiece
I'd personally leave it until spring to repot and just water carefully until then. Elms are tough, but I've learned it's best do beat on the roots at the correct time or you'll have a pissed off tree!
Aaron
Rob_phillips
Chumono
Yeah that's the thinking in my head too leave till spring no point in rushing into any thing just be vigilant over the winter and avoid frost. I wonder if this tree would be winter Hardy as it's probably been mass produced some where in green houses with the understanding most people will keep it indoors but it will get used to the out doors soon and if it looses it's leaves so be it till next spring
Craigm
Mame
I also would wait till late winter,early spring to repot, just as the new buds are beginning to swell.
The next step after vigor will be to decide what you would like your Elm to look like.
It may be worth considering to remove majority of top branching as the are mostly too thick to be part of this trees design.
The Trunk should be the thickest and as it moves upwards the branches should taper off instead of getting bigger.
this is most likely what I would do but not seeing the tree before me makes it slightly harder ,so it'll be your judgement call.
Decide what you personally feel comfortable with and put the Trees health over styling if your unsure.
remove everything above orange line, wire remaining 2 branches slightly more upwards to create a nice "flow" to the top.
have fun,
The next step after vigor will be to decide what you would like your Elm to look like.
It may be worth considering to remove majority of top branching as the are mostly too thick to be part of this trees design.
The Trunk should be the thickest and as it moves upwards the branches should taper off instead of getting bigger.
this is most likely what I would do but not seeing the tree before me makes it slightly harder ,so it'll be your judgement call.
Decide what you personally feel comfortable with and put the Trees health over styling if your unsure.
remove everything above orange line, wire remaining 2 branches slightly more upwards to create a nice "flow" to the top.
have fun,
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I like @Craigm 's advice. One style of broom that looks very natural the trunk branches successively. 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 etc. At each division, the branches should be a little less than 50% (25% to 50%) the diameter of the trunk or branch that is dividing. To create this type of broom you will be rebuilding the tree from the first branches.
The tree is a nice little tree, you could do a few different things with it. Good start.
The tree is a nice little tree, you could do a few different things with it. Good start.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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In the absense of something that you want to highlight, a good ''guide'' not an ''absolute rule'', one third of tree's height should be trunk, one third the zone of main branching and outer third should be zone of foliage & fine twigs. Diameter of trunk should be at least 1/10th to 1/4 the total height of the tree. Both ''rules'' are just guides, but if you are not sure what direction to shoot for, they do reult in pleasing trees.
Tieball
Masterpiece
Nice thought....illustration.....and explanation.
DougB
Chumono
Hey guys do we all accept that a mame is 4" or less in height as measured from the rim of the pot?
ColinFraser
Masterpiece
Yeah, this elm looks much more in shohin territory (based on the hand in the photo) to me.
One thing to be aware of @Rob_phillips - your elm appears to be made from a root cutting. You can see where the trunk changes texture about halfway up the bare section. The lowest portion may always look and behave slightly differently, so if you truly want mame, you may be better served by an air-layer, effectively raising the bottom of the tree, rather than (or as well as) lowering the top.
Tieball
Masterpiece
Good point.
Rob_phillips
Chumono
The tree is around 15 cm from the top of the pot.
Interesting you should mention about that section of the trunk I had wondered about its look. but why would they do that in the first place? seems strange.
Air layering would be an option to consider would you do that before or after the trunk chop or should I do the trunk chop first as the tree is healthy now and airlayering will knock it back a few years before being workable again.
Interesting you should mention about that section of the trunk I had wondered about its look. but why would they do that in the first place? seems strange.
Air layering would be an option to consider would you do that before or after the trunk chop or should I do the trunk chop first as the tree is healthy now and airlayering will knock it back a few years before being workable again.
ColinFraser
Masterpiece
Making root cuttings is a common method of propagation for elms (Elm Root Cuttings). If the tree grows out bigger, the seam will become less and less visible, but on a small mass produced tree it is usually easy to see.
ColinFraser
Masterpiece
True mame top out at around 10cm max.
I think I would do them at the same time and then let the new growth resulting from the chop run wild to power the layer . . . take that with a grain of salt since I'm impatient. If you read through the the two threads listed below, you will see that I've cut elms back heavily and started layers at the same time with success:
Chinese Elm #2
Cork Bark Chinese Elm(s)
Bonsai Hunter
Yamadori
Some of my attempts at mini bonsai. I wish the Japanese people spoke and wrote in English :-( I see lot of good content but very little understandable matter for people like me. Google translation is a pain.
@ Eric Group - ya that guy is good. i love his visual style of communication !
air layers of an existing bonsai are the best way to get started. else collect some tiny ficus saplings growing in cracks or root some cuttings, preferably from an existing bonsai with miniature leaves. Beg some veteran artist to let you know when they are going to do some pruning, so you can collect all their waste plant material for free
Rob_phillips
Chumono
Hi I really appreciate all the advice given so far and it has helped no end. I really like this idea in the pic after contemplating on it for a few months now, but I have a few more questions.
I have done a lot of research on technique on performing the trunk chop and I will wait till the spring but the question is that so I'm fully prepared to do the job in spring. if I do a v chop and wire the branches upwards slightly won't there be a risk of breaking the branches at the cut point as it will be weakened there?
Also although @ColinFraser says to do an airlayer on the trunk at the same time I feel a repot and trunk chop and an airlayer would be too much for the tree in one go. What are other opinions on the matter.
also @ColinFraser where on the trunk would you do the airlayer as I may do that first along with the repot and do the trunk chop either later in the year or next season. Unless I feel confident I can do all three at the same time.
I have done a lot of research on technique on performing the trunk chop and I will wait till the spring but the question is that so I'm fully prepared to do the job in spring. if I do a v chop and wire the branches upwards slightly won't there be a risk of breaking the branches at the cut point as it will be weakened there?
Also although @ColinFraser says to do an airlayer on the trunk at the same time I feel a repot and trunk chop and an airlayer would be too much for the tree in one go. What are other opinions on the matter.
also @ColinFraser where on the trunk would you do the airlayer as I may do that first along with the repot and do the trunk chop either later in the year or next season. Unless I feel confident I can do all three at the same time.
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ColinFraser
Masterpiece
If you do the layer, you probably don't need to repot it, since you'll be tossing the bottom half with all the old roots anyway (or trying to grow that into a separate tree). The point of the layer is to get rid of the odd Bottom section of trunk, so the layer would be at or just above the point where the texture changes.
A safer way to play it might be to chop in early spring, let it grow for a while, and then start your layer in late spring or early summer. Then you could probably separate by fall and get it into a pot . . .
Regarding breaking branches - there is always a risk of breaking when we bend branches; you just have to get a feel for what you can get away with. At least on an elm, if you do snap one, it will probably put out buds from the branch collar and replace itself.
parhamr
Omono
I recommend standard pruning and trimming techniques:
- remove branches growing straight up or down
- selectively prune branches such that remaining branches have change in diameter and direction
- reduce branching to remove bar branches and so no more than two come from any location
- trim branches during the growing season (after hardening) such that 1–3 internodes remain
Rob_phillips
Chumono
#ColinFrazer I think that's the approach I will take this is only an experiment and a learning curve so I will post back next year and give an update
Rob_phillips
Chumono
#parhamr cheers for your reply. sorry I should have mentioned the pics you see are from when I first purchased the tree it has been cleaned up and had a lot of the unless branches and shoots removed as you have suggested but my ultimate goal is to trunk chop to remove the chunky unless branches at the top and shorten the tree via a layer. Mainly to gain experience on certain techniques and because I feel it could end up a charming little tree eventually that cost next to nothing.
