Landscape Japanese Maple

[RichKid]

Now here is my thing. Im nervous! LOL I feel like having not even ever completed a successful repot I may not have the skills not to kill the large ones. Im certain I could get the saplings, because I'm just going to dig the entire rootball and not chop anything and take them whole. For the big ones, how should I chop? Straight across? Do I need to seal with anything? Whats the best tool for the job? I mean I just would like more detail so if I need things I don't have currently, I can try to acquire them before next week.

 

[rockm]

"You really need 3 feet?

I trunk chop before digging. Makes it easier to move around the tree and less unnecessary root ball disturbance after digging. Just another style for you to consider. "

Yeah. Leaving that allows more opportunity for buds to pop and eventual leader selection. I know this seems to be some bone you have to pick, but shortening it to final height at collection LIMITS your choices down the road. It does nothing for the tree. It places no more drag on the tree's resources than cutting at two or one foot...Ask most collectors and they will tell you much the same.

As for trunk chopping before digging, you also limit your ability to leverage the root mass. A larger lever can move more weight, simple physics. I trunk chop about halfway through the process once I have used the trunk to leverage the root mass enough to undercut it.

Check about 5 minutes into this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ems7KyGvcc

No, the JM isn't in a swamp, but the same principle of leverage holds true. A come-along is nice for any collection--a buddy can perform the same service though and would appreciate the ability to generate more leverage. Note how HIGH he trunk chops initially. He subsequently chops it again for transport, but leaves at least six inches for new apex buds to pop...

 

[rockm]

"Im nervous! LOL I feel like having not even ever completed a successful repot I may not have the skills not to kill the large ones. Im certain I could get the saplings, because I'm just going to dig the entire rootball and not chop anything and take them whole. For the big ones, how should I chop? Straight across? Do I need to seal with anything? Whats the best tool for the job? I mean I just would like more detail so if I need things I don't have currently, I can try to acquire them before next week."

Nervous is good. Too nervous is bad. Can't make a spectacular dive without jumping.

The object is to get a few (or a lot depending on what's available) feeder roots to sustain the trunk. JMs can take a bit of abuse and a huge root mass isn't reallly necessary with them.

Chop STRAIGHT across the trunk at first. Down the road you will make another angled chop below a new shoot that will become the tree's new apex--don't worry too much about this at this point.

Don't seal the cut roots, that can complicate re-rooting. Make sure cuts aren't ragged. Use sharp concave cutters or pruners to clean up raggedly cut roots. Cleanly cut roots are important to begin regenerating roots.

You'll need a brush saw, a hand pruning saw, sharp concave cutters, a hand trowel and a sturdy shovel. I begin collecting a tree by examining the surface roots to find the big ones. I cut those first about eight or nine inches out by digging with the hand trowel, exposing them. Once the big ones are cut, I begin digging away at one side, exposing and severing more and more roots. I push the tree back as I dig. This can take some effort and some eyeballing of the root mass as you go. Having another person along helps.

 

[Poink88]

Thanks for the "leverage" lesson rockm.

FYI, I am a professional engineer and understand a little bit about leverage. I also use the concept on some of my bendings if you've seen any of them. Re: more options, yes a lot of option but mostly on the wrong part of the tree (way up there).

We both have points of contention and both style works...I just have my preference and you have yours.

But hey, not my tree and not my time so carry on! Best of luck to you RichKid!

Thank you.

 

[RichKid]

I've tried searching for a japanese maple collecting video. No luck. I have everything I need I believe. I'm going to try to do it next week. I'm actually a little antsy now, like I want to just do it! A few questions still remain though, particularly about the soil and the container. I also have the storage tubs available though if need be, so I think I'm ok with the container. But Im still not sure about the soil. Does adding granite and turface to regular potting soil even do anything? Or is it just a waste of material?

 

[Dav4]

Thanks for the "leverage" lesson rockm.

Re: more options, yes a lot of option but mostly on the wrong part of the tree (way up there).

Dario, have you ever collected and chopped a field grown Acer palmatum...?

 

[rockm]

"FYI, I am a professional engineer and understand a little bit about leverage. I also use the concept on some of my bendings if you've seen any of them. Re: more options, yes a lot of option but mostly on the wrong part of the tree (way up there)."

Congratulations .

FWIW, the options WON'T all be at the top top of the tree. The more area, the more chance for buds to pop.

Is it really going to be like this every time I post bonsai-related stuff?

 

[Poink88]

Dario, have you ever collected and chopped a field grown Acer palmatum...?

Collected? No.
Chopped? Yes.
Why?

 

[Poink88]

Congratulations .

FWIW, the options WON'T all be at the top top of the tree. The more area, the more chance for buds to pop.

Is it really going to be like this every time I post bonsai-related stuff?

Thank you.

In the same line of thinking...why even chop then? Crazy question right?

Not a pissing contest (and to avoid one) so I'll leave you with that question to ponder. I am out of this thread.

 

[berobinson82]

I've tried searching for a japanese maple collecting video. No luck. I have everything I need I believe. I'm going to try to do it next week. I'm actually a little antsy now, like I want to just do it! A few questions still remain though, particularly about the soil and the container. I also have the storage tubs available though if need be, so I think I'm ok with the container. But Im still not sure about the soil. Does adding granite and turface to regular potting soil even do anything? Or is it just a waste of material?

As far as potting soil goes:

There have been plentiful threads and comments made here in the last year or two about soil. On every bonsai forum across the web you'll see the same. In those ingredients used to make bonsai soil, potting soil just isn't a popular contender.

I remember your thread looking for bark earlier. You could get some soil conditioner and sift it. No one has recommended potting soil and I doubt anyone will.

Tuface and granite are a good start. Can you find any pumice in the area? Victrinia used to coach me to use heavy pumice on collected trees and air layers.

Will it work? Perhaps. The question is what's going to promote the very best root growth for your collection.

 

[rockm]

"I guess I will have to build some extra grow boxes. I do have tons of turface and granite, but not enough bark to make that much soil. Do you think it would be alright if I put them in regular potting soil and maybe mix some aggregate in just for this season and try to get them repotted next year into better stuff? "

DON'T use potting soil. It will turn to muck and smother roots and prevent drainage--a very bad situation for new root generation. You want organics that drain. Do a search on "pine bark soil conditioner" or "pine bark fines". In a pinch, you could also look for orchid supply places for "baby orchid bark" The organic portion can be improvised--you're looking for bark or similar that retains its structure for a couple of years and drains. Look online at pics of some of this stuff and then go to a nursery and look around, ask the Pennsylvania Bonsai (you are in PA, aren't you) clubs. They have already sourced this stuff.

Give them a call, email them
http://pabonsai.org/

Call Nature's Way. I know they have soil components...
http://www.natureswaybonsai.com/

 

[Dav4]

Collected? No.
Chopped? Yes.
Why?

...because you're giving advice to someone who had questions concerning collecting Acer palmatums and chopping them....and you're getting into a pissing match with someone who has more experience then you concerning the questions at hand, and he also lives near to the individual asking the questions. I guess I'm trying to figure out why you feel your advice is needed, given all this.

 

[rockm]

"In the same line of thinking...why even chop then? Crazy question right?"

If you're an engineer, you probably understand the physics limiting the ability to move the tree unchopped...or keep it in a smaller place.

As a new collector you also might not understand that JMs can die back at cut sites and that without an initial chop NO new buds low down are stimulated... An initial chop starts that process. A chop too low limits your prospects.

 

[RichKid]

As far as potting soil goes:

There have been plentiful threads and comments made here in the last year or two about soil. On every bonsai forum across the web you'll see the same. In those ingredients used to make bonsai soil, potting soil just isn't a popular contender.

I remember your thread looking for bark earlier. You could get some soil conditioner and sift it. No one has recommended potting soil and I doubt anyone will.

Tuface and granite are a good start. Can you find any pumice in the area? Victrinia used to coach me to use heavy pumice on collected trees and air layers.

Will it work? Perhaps. The question is what's going to promote the very best root growth for your collection.

I know potting soil is not optimal. If you remember my thread about bark fines, then you know I've been searching but haven't been able to find any or any soil conditioner. I did buy some orchid mix which has the bark fines in it. I just don't want to go buy $40 worth of soil for one to two plants. I would plan to continue looking for the fines, but I'm kind of in a pinch being that I plan on getting these trees next week and I doubt I'll find what I'm looking for in time. ALL that being said (whew), I suppose I'll just have to keep trying or plan on putting them in the ground, which I don't want to do. The small ones yeah, the big ones I'd prefer to put straight into training pots. Rock, thanks for the links, I will try to contact them and see if they can point me in the proper direction! As far as the "battle", I don't understand why it has to turn into this. I started this thread to ask for serious advice, and I ask because I know the majority of you guys have WAYYYY more experience and wisdom than me and I know to respect that. I definitely appreciate the help don't get me wrong. But I also know that people have different opinions for different reasons. Thats also fine. I would always be smart enough to take all opinions into consideration without trying to prove the next person wrong. Thanks again to everyone for being so helpful to someone like myself who really has no experience but really wants to get into the art. It is truly appreciated. I'll let you guys know how I make out. Fingers crossed!

 

[rockm]

Richkid,

Good luck on the pine bark. I'll bet the local clubs can answer that question almost immediately.

And a few other things, you never know how to collect unless you do it. Don't worry too much about the trees, that can lead to needless fussing. Also, don't get attached to the trees. Take adequate care of them, but don't fuss over them. I don't assume a newly collected tree is automatically going to make it. Although it probably will live, if things do take a turn south, a bit of emotional distance can make the loss a bit easier to take.

 

[coh]

I've only collected a few trees (and no Japanese maples), but what I've used for the first potting (grow box) is a mixture of bark (sifted from pine bark mulch, the finest I could get), turface, perlite, and some nursery mix. The nursery mix is a bagged product composed of peat, bark, perlite. I add the perlite to provide some bulk and decrease the weight, as those over-sized grow boxes can get too heavy for my wonky back if there's too much turface or grit. This has worked pretty well so far, though I haven't actually repotted any of these trees yet...letting them re-establish for a couple of years. Wondering what others (rockm?) think about a mix like this.

Also, I didn't see any comments about tying the trees into the boxes...may have missed that, but if not, seems like that is a good idea to minimize any movement while the roots grow.

Chris

 

[RichKid]

Chris,
That is exactly what I was asking, if in anyway I could add volume to my mix by using some sort of prebagged off the shelf product that would be easy to find. I'm on my way back to home depot now to buy a few bags of orchid mix. But its 5$ for 8 qts whereas I could get 3 cubic yards of some sort of pitting mix for $8. I never planned on using solely that, but to mix it in w everything else to add to the total amount of soil I have. But it seems the concensus is no. So ill go w the orchid mix. as far as tying or wiring the tree to the box I just assumed that was bonsai 101! Lol I also drill holes in the bottom of the dish tubs. Drainage.

 

[rockm]

The mix Chris mentions will probably work, although the peat isn't ideal. But if you can find it, great.

"Also, I didn't see any comments about tying the trees into the boxes...may have missed that, but if not, seems like that is a good idea to minimize any movement while the roots grow"

A VERY important point I skipped past. Anchor them securely with wire, bracing or whatever works.

 

[jkd2572]

Get em all. Your going to wish down the road you got the big ones.

 

[RichKid]

Get em all. Your going to wish down the road you got the big ones.

I actually agree with you. I know in twenty years I will wish I had, but right now, I think I'll have my hands full with everything I already have going on. And the guy was pretty cool. When I go back I'm going to let him know that if they are still there next spring I'll come back for more. The way I see it, he loves the trees and wont just destroy them, and there arent many people wanting to buy them so there should be at least one more for me next year! I'm just having a hard time visualizing a small branch eventually becoming the leader on a trunk that wide anytime in the near future. I've never trunk chopped a tree quite so large, actually at all, and I want to see how it responds first and learn a little more.