Kiwi’s Jap Black Pine

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Cascade bend too straight.

Hi Potawatomi13,
Do you mean the 2nd half of the Cascade or the whole thing?
Thank you for commenting as I can change the wiring and try not to break it lol.
Charles

 

[Dorky_gearhead]

Thomas, I love that top one!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
I have a small update 1 year later. Not much to report so I have only added a few photos. I have repotted these out of nursery pots and there were some circling roots, and found some colanders. Although a little big my 2-3 year old babies should be ok without repot for a few years.
Here is my semi-cascade attempt. Not much candle extension this spring but the repot I might have hit it too hard.

I am planning to bend the trunk more after the roots are more stable.

My second showing is a couple of 3 year babies I put some bends into. I may have gone over board re bends, so we shall see how these and others go, going forward in the next year or three. I have also bought another 10 seedlings, which I hope to try lesser bends and a literati and other styles.


Lastly I have a rogue seedling with “no idea” what to do with. Hmm, with lots of low branches/trunks I am thinking of a multi trunk option, or others may have a different thought.


I have no more room for in-ground planting so looking forward to comments/critique/thoughts on what to do for the next few years, apart from letting the main trunk on all grow and grow.
Charles

 

[Potawatomi13]

Use personal imagination for single/multi trunks. Yes more bending for oldest cascade. Straight sections much to be avoided. If causing break do not try to bend back but let heal that way. Put cut paste on wound till end of growing season. longer can cause too much scar tissue growth. Also bend in 3 dimensions not just up/down or side/side.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Use personal imagination for single/multi trunks. Yes more bending for oldest cascade. Straight sections much to be avoided. If causing break do not try to bend back but let heal that way. Put cut paste on wound till end of growing season. longer can cause too much scar tissue growth. Also bend in 3 dimensions not just up/down or side/side.

Hi @Potawatomi13,
Thank you for you comments.
One question I have is - to create 1st branch, 2nd branch etc and to keep these short etc.
Do I decandle these first branches and let the top grow to keep branches compact?
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

3 months later and I have had 1 growth spurt and little bits of second flush etc. I guess this year has been root growth then next year will be top growth etc.
I have a question or ten ? for @Adair M and others.
From photos below, I am in a state of confusion on sacrifice growth vs more needle buds and start the trunks again.
As I have a few branches under the long extension growth, do I leave them alone for another year or two, then chop?
It is just the Eric Schrader’s website says to cut the extension growth when pine 3 years old, and mine are 3-4 years ( best guess).




Thanks all for your help and replies.
Charles

 

[Adair M]

I’d let them grow. You can always graft on a branch wherever you need one.

 

[Shibui]

To grow or chop depends on what you have and what you want.
JBP only reliably buds from existing healthy needles. Needles seem to have a 2-3 year lifespan before dying. This means you can allow them to grow freely for 2-3 years before cutting back to the oldest needles and be reasonably sure of buds.
Some of your trees already have lower branches. This means the upper parts can be allowed to grow freely for longer then cut back to the lower branch which then becomes the trunk. As long as those lower branches remain healthy and have needles or more shoots in appropriate places you can allow the upper parts to grow freely with no worry about having something to grow the future tree from.
Keep an eye on growing pines with really big sacrifice branches. The vigorous top growth may supress lower desired parts to the point of killing those lowest branches.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
New Spring growth all strong.

Most of my 10 or so seedlings are into their 4th season with the massive extension growth. Most about 5 foot in height.
Simple question as I think I know the answer?
Because the bottom growth is not really being hindered on most of them - should I leave them be another season?

I have a new trunk section ready to go as per the circled photo below.

Just unsure?
Charles

 

[Shibui]

As long as the lower sections that you intend to use are still healthy you can leave the sacrifice. Just be aware that lower sections can weaken when there is rampant high growth. If you suspect the lower parts are getting weak cut the sacrifice branch back into older needles. no need to remove it altogether, just suppress growth long enough for the tree to start diverting resources back to the lower areas.
Looks like that one needs a few more years of sacrifice growth to build a decent trunk. You may find those pots start to get top heavy and blow over with really long sacrifice branch. Sometimes I have to reduce the sacrifice branch enough to stabilize the pot again. That slows growth but better than the tree dying from not getting proper water. Or you may be able to tie the pots down to maintain stability.
The areas you have marked look good for making the tree after thickening.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

As long as the lower sections that you intend to use are still healthy you can leave the sacrifice. Just be aware that lower sections can weaken when there is rampant high growth. If you suspect the lower parts are getting weak cut the sacrifice branch back into older needles. no need to remove it altogether, just suppress growth long enough for the tree to start diverting resources back to the lower areas.
Looks like that one needs a few more years of sacrifice growth to build a decent trunk. You may find those pots start to get top heavy and blow over with really long sacrifice branch. Sometimes I have to reduce the sacrifice branch enough to stabilize the pot again. That slows growth but better than the tree dying from not getting proper water. Or you may be able to tie the pots down to maintain stability.
The areas you have marked look good for making the tree after thickening.

Hi,
Thank you so much for your experienced based comments, and pleased my instinct said to let it grow more, and you agree which is great.
After my colanders started to blow over in a breeze I figured I needed a plan. So I got a length of decent non-rusty wire and suspended it at about 4ft (1.2 m) and attached my pines to it. Has been working great against stormy gusts etc.
A bit like at the nursery I work at where we tie trees to wires so they don’t blow over.
Thanks for passing comment and moral support.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
So a rush of blood to the head, or a good move. Probably wrong timing but my Winter hasn’t been much for years now.
My crappy semi-cascade ( post #23) has had an attempt to change the trunk line - via approach graft -



Via a smaller JBP in the colander beside I have attached the graft. I cut a deep gully into the trunk of the receiving tree and scraped so it was green of the donor and attached.
Now the wait begins.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi again,
I have question for someone. Below is a photo of one of my 3-4 year old JBP. My good problem is that I think the roots are so full that the colanders don’t drain very well.

So the question is - can I repot this and others late Winter leaving all the top growth?
I have them tied to a wire as top heavy.
My plan is to cut back Winter 2021.

 

[Adair M]

Hi again,
I have question for someone. Below is a photo of one of my 3-4 year old JBP. My good problem is that I think the roots are so full that the colanders don’t drain very well.
View attachment 297612
So the question is - can I repot this and others late Winter leaving all the top growth?
I have them tied to a wire as top heavy.
My plan is to cut back Winter 2021.

Repot in early spring.

On your sacrifice branches: when they get tall and large, the foliage mass can shade the lower branches that you want to keep to make your tree.

I don’t grow out trees like you are doing, I buy them. But, I know how they do it. They will decandle the lower branches, and prune them for basic shape while the sacrifice branch builds the trunk. Ground growing is best, but container growing works, just slower. If you want a larger tree, forget the colanders, go with a larger grow box, and use coarse soil. If you want a Shohin, use colander, and use a smaller particle soil mix. Coarse soil promotes rapid root growth which, in turn, promotes rapid top growth.

Here is a picture from Telperion Farms of their JBP grow patch:




See how they strip off the needles on the sacrifice trunks? And remove the side branches on the sacrifices? Keeping the central leader? Those sacrifice trunks are 15 feet tall! Meanwhile, they’re keeping a bush of foliage around the base.

After a while, they’ll chop the first sacrifice, and start the process all over again with a second, and later third sacrifice branch to build taper.

the end result will look something like this:



You can see where the second trunk section starts off going on the right. It, too, was chopped, and a new leader was chosen to move back left.

I’m guessing the picture above was when the tree was about 15 years old. This was taken in 2012.

Here’s the tree today:



Getting there.

 

[fudo133]

I don’t grow out trees like you are doing, I buy them. But, I know how they do it. They will decandle the lower branches, and prune them for basic shape while the sacrifice branch builds the trunk. Ground growing is best, but container growing works, just slower. If you want a larger tree, forget the colanders, go with a larger grow box, and use coarse soil. If you want a Shohin, use colander, and use a smaller particle soil mix. Coarse soil promotes rapid root growth which, in turn, promotes rapid top growth.

Please forgive the stupid question, but what sort of particle size soil mix would you deem coarse enough for encouraging more rapid growth for larger trees?

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
@Adair M , thank you for your post and your help. I guess I got a long way to go lol. My thinking going forward as I have a dozen or so is to plant say half (best ones) in the ground, and other half in grow boxes.
My question to add onto the previous post (@fudo133), what size of box do you consider large? I am thinking either 3 or say 10 gallon (45 litre) or box dimensions will work too .
Charles

 

[Adair M]

Hi,
@Adair M , thank you for your post and your help. I guess I got a long way to go lol. My thinking going forward as I have a dozen or so is to plant say half (best ones) in the ground, and other half in grow boxes.
My question to add onto the previous post (@fudo133), what size of box do you consider large? I am thinking either 3 or say 10 gallon (45 litre) or box dimensions will work too .
Charles

Well, the box can get bigger over the years. Bonsai pots are small, and their size restricts root growth, thus aiding in the effort to keep the trees small. But when you’re growing trees out, you don’t want to restrict root growth. So, over time, you’ll want to move the tree into a larger box.

 

[Adair M]

Please forgive the stupid question, but what sort of particle size soil mix would you deem coarse enough for encouraging more rapid growth for larger trees?

I don’t know... 1/4 inch or so?

 

[fudo133]

I don’t know... 1/4 inch or so?

Thanks! Pine soil mixtures and sizes have been a bit of a dark art to me so all advice is muchly appreciated!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

@Adair M , just in case the link below doesn’t work

Adair M said:
Which is why I buy older trees to work with.

Hi,
How many years can one expect to wait, re grow and chop, before working on a pine in refinement.
Can’t purchase trees here, so I wait, watch, learn, and wait some more!!!
Charles