Kiwi’s Jap Black Pine

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
I thought I would start this thread as an educational journey of how to grow, style, pluck, chop these black pines.
I have gone through many threads to gain info on how to grow these, but as a beginner I am a bit lost as to what to do.
I have added a couple of sample photos to start us off, and obviously plan on posting more photos as various stages in their progression.
These babies are 1.5 years old, potted into my own nursery blend of 80% pine bark,10% perlite, 10% Pumice. Also these were potted into 3 litre nursery pots as a start.
My thinking is I do a half in half trial. 1st half I pinch/take out central leader and keep whorl to 2 branches for new leader and first branch. And 2nd half of trial I leave alone for 3-5 years then chop down etc.
I have a few starting questions to ask.
1. Is my trial necessary?
2. Or should I chop all seedlings to force lower branching?
3. Or just take cuttings of these ( I have 10 trees) to get lower branching?

Now, many are reported to be using a colander of sorts. @sorce, could you please describe your use of mesh as a cheap method of colander.
@Anthony, I have made a comment on your thread regarding colanders and ground growing. Could you give me a few pointers as to pinching these seedlings for lower branches versus letting them go wild and then chopping.
@Adair M, I haven’t had the pleasure in reading your contributions to any of my threads, and was hoping you could point me in a few beginner directions for growing these baby pines.

Many thanks to all who contribute and read this thread, and I look forward to learning lots.
Charles
P.S. top right pine cutting was only 1 of black pines to root, but only had 5 cuttings to start with.

Sample black pine seedling

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Nov 17, 2017

Black pine seedlings

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Nov 17, 2017

Pine cuttings - Black, Nigra, Mugo

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Nov 12, 2017

 

[sorce]

https://bonsainut.com/threads/those-pot-materials.18202/

All the info is there....

They probably ship international and there is likely an amount that would be feasible to purchase.

But the same material may be sourced elsewhere.

UV safe. Good to freeze. And hole size are the most important factors.
Rigidity can be influenced.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

May I refer you to Eric Schreader’s thread “A few pine seeds six years later”? It should be i the pines sub forum.

Also, I will refer you to Jonas’s blog: www.bonsaitonight.com. He has many posts on raising JBP from seed.

Good luck!

 

[Thomas J.]

Do yourself a favor and put some movement in the trees now while the trunks can be bent easily at this young age. These are 4 1/2 yr old seedlings styled at 1yr and will be shohin bonsai. You don't have to do cascade style if you don't want but put some movement now, that is of course you want all your trees to be standard upright style.

 

[Anthony]

Charles,

firstly Adair [ Sifu ] is my online Master, he works for thanks, and respect, though a
little teasing does not hurt either ------a little.

The Bonsai Today articles are very simple as trunk thickening and main branches are concerned.

First you must learn to keep your plants healthy.

Know to move the seedling out of the 10 cm pot and into another shape twice as large, but not
deeper, after a year of germination/growing.

Seek out the ones that grow tall, and as they reach 90 cm, be prepared to cut back to
8 cm and the response should be buds and needles.

Then if needed a larger pot, but once again no more than 13 cm in depth.

We found earthenware works best for us as pots, since from June to December we
have heavy rains, and the earthenware pot wicks away the excess rain.

The limit on the use of compost is no more than 1/3 by volume to our simple 5 mm
silica based gravel.

The response to the cut down is new choices for branches and shape of the trunk.
Branchlets will happen naturally.

Then you get Sifu's attention for wiring and refinement.

There is also once again a section on wiring in Bonsai Today.

I have suggested to another Bnut member in the US, to ask for help in getting the
articles copied and perhaps an offer of exchange of something .
If you make the request and get no joy.
Send me a p.m. and we will see what can be done.
Try to think leaves, as opposed to needles, tends to normalise the conifer.

As I have tried to show, some seed is so much faster they can reach the cut down height
in two years. However speed and quality may end up as two different situations.
So beware.

Did a check on Amazon Japan, J.B. pine seed sold there is from China.

We intend to take 5 to 10 seedlings and plant them in sandy soil on our side and see
if the trees' seeds will be any good.
Good Day
Anthony

* Oh the Japanese say use lots of fertiliser --------- you may wish to find out how much
and what.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

https://bonsainut.com/threads/those-pot-materials.18202/

All the info is there....

They probably ship international and there is likely an amount that would be feasible to purchase.

But the same material may be sourced elsewhere.

UV safe. Good to freeze. And hole size are the most important factors.
Rigidity can be influenced.

Sorce

Hi Sorce,
What a cool thread you have there, as I didn’t figure the concrete bit to hold it together . Definitely going to try something similar when my trees need repot next , say 1-2 years.
The hole size you talk about. It looks about 6mm (1/4 inch squares), or is it bigger?
I can find mesh used for insect screen & guttering (2mm & 5-6 mm) grades that I plan on making large sieves with. Would the 2mm screen be too small to be useful as an airpot etc?

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel here just trying to source locally for price etc.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Charles,

firstly Adair [ Sifu ] is my online Master, he works for thanks, and respect, though a
little teasing does not hurt either ------a little.

The Bonsai Today articles are very simple as trunk thickening and main branches are concerned.

First you must learn to keep your plants healthy.

Know to move the seedling out of the 10 cm pot and into another shape twice as large, but not
deeper, after a year of germination/growing.

Seek out the ones that grow tall, and as they reach 90 cm, be prepared to cut back to
8 cm and the response should be buds and needles.

Then if needed a larger pot, but once again no more than 13 cm in depth.

We found earthenware works best for us as pots, since from June to December we
have heavy rains, and the earthenware pot wicks away the excess rain.

The limit on the use of compost is no more than 1/3 by volume to our simple 5 mm
silica based gravel.

The response to the cut down is new choices for branches and shape of the trunk.
Branchlets will happen naturally.

Then you get Sifu's attention for wiring and refinement.

There is also once again a section on wiring in Bonsai Today.

I have suggested to another Bnut member in the US, to ask for help in getting the
articles copied and perhaps an offer of exchange of something .
If you make the request and get no joy.
Send me a p.m. and we will see what can be done.
Try to think leaves, as opposed to needles, tends to normalise the conifer.

As I have tried to show, some seed is so much faster they can reach the cut down height
in two years. However speed and quality may end up as two different situations.
So beware.

Did a check on Amazon Japan, J.B. pine seed sold there is from China.

We intend to take 5 to 10 seedlings and plant them in sandy soil on our side and see
if the trees' seeds will be any good.
Good Day
Anthony

* Oh the Japanese say use lots of fertiliser --------- you may wish to find out how much
and what.

Hi Anthony,
Many thanks for your detailed answer.
I have signed up at Bonsai Tonight to start the reading/researching of JBP.
I am still a little confused tho about the cut back.

Sample black pine seedling

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Nov 17, 2017

The photo I added were of 1.5 year seedlings and they have grown quite tall, maybe 50-70 cm, but are losing their needles down low. So if I was to cut down to 10-15cm, there maybe no needles down that low.
Would they still happily sprout away?
As per photo above.

This next photo is of my original purchase, which is 3yrs, approx 1.2meters high, and first branch is about 60cm.
Hmm, cut back to above first branch? Cut back by a third?
Or cut back to 40-50cm and watch it sprout?

Thank you for your help understanding the randomness of pines lol.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Do yourself a favor and put some movement in the trees now while the trunks can be bent easily at this young age. These are 4 1/2 yr old seedlings styled at 1yr and will be shohin bonsai. You don't have to do cascade style if you don't want but put some movement now, that is of course you want all your trees to be standard upright style. View attachment 167466View attachment 167468

Hi Thomas J,
Many thanks for your comments regarding bending these seedlings.
I have not done much wire work but I can definitely see from your amazing trees how I should wire at least 6 or 7 of them and have only 3 or 4 as informal/formal uprights etc .
I will update this thread with my wiring attempts.
Is there a best time to wire PINES?
I have heard Autumn, but others elsewhere say wire whenever?
Charles

 

[Thomas J.]

For me I do light wiring whenever it's needed, but heavy wiring on large branches which take a lot of pressure to bend I do in the late fall and winter. If you're going to wire your seedlings you should be able to do it anytime since they are so young and pliable still. I did mine at repotting in early spring.

 

[plant_dr]

Charles,
In post #7 on the first photo I can see what looks like two small branches opposite each other near the soil. You could cut back to just above that point. But you want to be sure your trunk is the thickness you want it to be before chopping though.

I'm just looking at this on a small tablet so I could be wrong about what I see there.

 

[sorce]

Would the 2mm screen be too small to be useful as an airpot etc

Above 2mm is what I keep for my soil.

The smallest particles fall thru the basket.

About 2mm works for me!

Sorce

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Above 2mm is what I keep for my soil.

The smallest particles fall thru the basket.

About 2mm works for me!

Sorce

Yaaa, solved that, now onto design and build lol. I do like the way the concrete holds the mesh in place, and me to look into mounds etc. I shall think about this more as I have at least 6 months before some trees will be calling to be repotted again.
Thank you as you and this site have made lots of things more doable already, and only just started.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Charles,
In post #7 on the first photo I can see what looks like two small branches opposite each other near the soil. You could cut back to just above that point. But you want to be sure your trunk is the thickness you want it to be before chopping though.

I'm just looking at this on a small tablet so I could be wrong about what I see there.

Hi plant Dr,
Yes, you are correct as a few of the 10 seedlings I bought have growths at the bottom. I might try a few different methods with these 10 to understand how they grow, regrow after cutbacks etc.
According to other threads here the use of sacrifice branches/trunks is the best way to grow girth etc. And I also read somewhere today that if I plant these in colanders and then let roots escape into soil I keep the starting nebari and get girth etc.
Thank you for information as I am on a research and observation mission this early on.
Charles

 

[Anthony]

Charles.

with the cut down ------------ you can only cut to an area where you have needles.
Without needles, it is most likely the plant will die.

BUT if you follow the wiring advice, you should be able to curve and get the effect.
Especially as the tree thickens and absorbs the curves.

I am afraid, you will have to experiment and there may be loses, as you learn.
Grow about 50 plants.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Charles,

to do the cut down, at all stages from seedling the victms should look like this.
See image.
Hope this helps,
Anthony

I don't know if this helps ------- but the soil is a simple mix of 5 mm silica
based gravel and compost.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Charles.

with the cut down ------------ you can only cut to an area where you have needles.
Without needles, it is most likely the plant will die.

BUT if you follow the wiring advice, you should be able to curve and get the effect.
Especially as the tree thickens and absorbs the curves.

I am afraid, you will have to experiment and there may be loses, as you learn.
Grow about 50 plants.
Good Day
Anthony

Hi Anthony,
Thank you for your advice re cutbacks , as it was kind of what I thought too.
Growing 50 pine trees, hmm, I have pinus nigra, pinus ponderosa, pinus mugo, and even some pinus thunbergii .
Ok I hear you re growing lots for the growing and training experience.
Charles

 

[Potawatomi13]

Do yourself a favor and put some movement in the trees now while the trunks can be bent easily at this young age.

HUGE second to this!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

UPDATE

Hi all,
I have attempted some wiring on my JBP babies.
I am unsure if what I have done is ok, good, or plain wrong. I look forward to constructive comments etc.
Also I have tried to make them branch by trimming the candles a little. If they do a second round of growth for the season I should be ok ( I guess)???
Then my thoughts were to let one of the tops grow asa sacrifice trunk for a few years.
Does this make sense? Am I thinking in the correct order? Or more research etc needed.

JBP wiring 2

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

JBP wiring 1

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

JBP Cascade wiring 1

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

Thanks for everyone’s help
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Update #1 cont.
So the JBP I have named #2 is an older seedling with its first branch above 60 cm, so I decided to wire it into “some sort of” Cascade. Well a start anyway.
I have slightly shortened the candles to force branching. Hope that is ok, or maybe it will set it back a year or 3.
Charles

JBP older seedling

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

JBP cascade 2 older tree

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

 

[Potawatomi13]

Update #1 cont.
So the JBP I have named #2 is an older seedling with its first branch above 60 cm, so I decided to wire it into “some sort of” Cascade. Well a start anyway.
I have slightly shortened the candles to force branching. Hope that is ok, or maybe it will set it back a year or 3.
Charles

JBP older seedling

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

JBP cascade 2 older tree

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Dec 16, 2017

Cascade bend too straight.