Judging New Talent

[Victrinia Ensor]

I have mentioned to my hubby that my wiring was the one thing I was least happy with. Because it was just ok - it wasn't as good as I would have liked. Which is why, in this criteria of judging, Stacy would have won, and Ryan wouldn't have even placed. His tree had virtually no fine wire. I think I might have still hit #2. lol

Stacy... you have every reason to feel good about what you did... I am proud of you, which you well know.

V

 

[coh]

Thats because a master with wire can hide all the faults you can't do....

But only if he is also good with overall shaping and branch placement, right? Otherwise you just have a bunch of neatly wired branches (and note, I'm not saying that is what I see in Stacey's tree).

 

[A Random User]

Sorry I disappointed you brother... that puts you on a short list. lol But I know you have your own particular standards, so I'll leave it at that. I made Eric, Daniel, diane, and a host of other people proud, I can live with that.

V

Vic, you made me proud as well!
Everyone obviously wants their own tree to win, but
I knew you had won as soon as I saw what you had done!

 

[Vance Wood]

Thats because a master with wire can hide all the faults you can't do....

That's not quite true. I have seen what happens when one is a master at wiring but has the artistic eye and talent of a garbage man, knowing only the difference between compost and trash. Many years ago we had an individual in our club that had the most miraculous wiring skills, enough so many told him he should, in his words, go national. But his abilities to imagine an idea for a design ranked up there with those who clean port-o-pottys. Not meaning to speak ill of those who clean Port-o-Pottys but if it were not for them we would be doing it in the road;----- in tribute to the Beatles White Album.

 

[ChrisV]

Ok let me bump in here for a sec.
With my earlier post I didn't want to criticize the work you guys done negatively, but more like positive feedback.
And yes I am the gent that said more work could have been done and trees could be more refined in the amount of time given.
Believe me I worked bigger yamadori in demo's and looked more refined after just 4 hours. Not to brag just saying.

I partly agree with the 1st post in this thread. However not keeping future development and health in mind bothers me.
First of all Bonsai is always working towards a future design that's why we take steps.
So rushing it because it has to wow people isn't bonsai to me and I know a lot of artist agree with me on that.
That is the reason they eliminated the wow factor in demo's etc. Health of the tree is most important.

Than comes the wiring. This is absolutely something that shouldn't be taken too lightly. Wiring a tree comes with a lot of stress for the tree. With every bend you make little cracks appear in the bark, cambium etc and need time to heal. Sloppy wire wont't fixate the branch as good and fast so more bends and movement have to be made to get into the desired position. This will also mean more small cracks that also mean more parts that can dry out and die off.
Simple as that. It's also a good thing to know that you always wire in the direction you want to bend the branch this also makes bending easier and lesser stress to the tree.

One of the most important things. Creativity. Use of material and use of movement.
In my opinion only the 5th and last tree had that. Although they had other flaws they were the most original and flowing. Good eye and use of material.
This is probably the most important thing when designing a tree. Just look at examples of of great bonsai it's all about flow and motion just as many other japanese arts.

Some trees had amazing trunks to start with but sadly used in the wrong angle. For example tree nr2 has great movement in the trunk and age in the bark but the two thick branches pointing upwards really disturb the flow and overall image. Using another angle could fix this easily.

Bonsai is 80% creativity and 20% horticultural because it is an art form. But has some guidelines if you want it to be bonsai.
And talent is something that you can not measure by one shaping a tree in a day like I said before it can only be measured over a longer period when one also masters the other 20%.

Deadwood not necessary at all to make good trees in the first place and only adds more to the composition when all other things are correct.

If you like to see what I mean by bonsai talent go to the FB page of Mario Komstra a real magician with trees.
At this point one of the most talented creative guys around and no he didn't make those trees in one day because he also understands all other aspects that come with bonsai.

I'm not saying you guys didn't do a good job, seriously I really like what you've done and I can understand the fun doing it and that is also very important.

 

[A Random User]

Ok let me bump in here for a sec.
With my earlier post I didn't want to criticize the work you guys done negatively, but more like positive feedback.
And yes I am the gent that said more work could have been done and trees could be more refined in the amount of time given.
Believe me I worked bigger yamadori in demo's and looked more refined after just 4 hours. Not to brag just saying.

I partly agree with the 1st post in this thread. However not keeping future development and health in mind bothers me.
First of all Bonsai is always working towards a future design that's why we take steps.
So rushing it because it has to wow people isn't bonsai to me and I know a lot of artist agree with me on that.
That is the reason they eliminated the wow factor in demo's etc. Health of the tree is most important.

Than comes the wiring. This is absolutely something that shouldn't be taken too lightly. Wiring a tree comes with a lot of stress for the tree. With every bend you make little cracks appear in the bark, cambium etc and need time to heal. Sloppy wire wont't fixate the branch as good and fast so more bends and movement have to be made to get into the desired position. This will also mean more small cracks that also mean more parts that can dry out and die off.
Simple as that. It's also a good thing to know that you always wire in the direction you want to bend the branch this also makes bending easier and lesser stress to the tree.

One of the most important things. Creativity. Use of material and use of movement.
In my opinion only the 5th and last tree had that. Although they had other flaws they were the most original and flowing. Good eye and use of material.
This is probably the most important thing when designing a tree. Just look at examples of of great bonsai it's all about flow and motion just as many other japanese arts.

Some trees had amazing trunks to start with but sadly used in the wrong angle. For example tree nr2 has great movement in the trunk and age in the bark but the two thick branches pointing upwards really disturb the flow and overall image. Using another angle could fix this easily.

Bonsai is 80% creativity and 20% horticultural because it is an art form. But has some guidelines if you want it to be bonsai.
And talent is something that you can not measure by one shaping a tree in a day like I said before it can only be measured over a longer period when one also masters the other 20%.

Deadwood not necessary at all to make good trees in the first place and only adds more to the composition when all other things are correct.

If you like to see what I mean by bonsai talent go to the FB page of Mario Komstra a real magician with trees.
At this point one of the most talented creative guys around and no he didn't make those trees in one day because he also understands all other aspects that come with bonsai.

I'm not saying you guys didn't do a good job, seriously I really like what you've done and I can understand the fun doing it and that is also very important.

If one is to then judge by the standards that you have now put forth, Creativity,
Use of material and movement... then the obvious tree at then should of won,
Taking into account all these as well as future development that you have also said
Should be taken into account, then the tree that should of won, should
Have been tree #4 hands down. He ended up with the best material, made the best
Use of it, and really had the best movement out of all of them. Having seen them all
First hand, he actually established some unbelievably creative movement within his
Tree that had an very realistic feel of tree with the wind blowing through it, slightly
Twisting all the branches as it did. His tree in the following years will far surpass the
Quality of any of the rest of the trees and will end up being way more than a competition tree.

So, I am surprised why you did not pick this tree seeing that it best meets the
Criteria you set forth. I would suggest another look And perhaps a report back
As to why you didn't chose this one... not trying to be sarcastic here, just
Not understanding how your criteria holds up to the trees you have chosen.
Thanks

 

[Smoke]

Sure, but later you said

You have to ask yourself if all these teachers were available to the public for the same price and your sore suit was wireing a tree to look like a finely groomed bonsai, (of which there are many right on this forum) who would you enlist for help? That is what a talent contest is supposed to do for this group. I think the judges looked past that aspect for some reason...

So what if my sore suit isn't wiring as much as it is overall shaping or branch placement, etc? Then I would probably look for one of the other talents. So I don't think I would place wiring as #1 and overall shape as #2, I'd rate them equally...whereas you are obviously placing more emphasis on the final detailing.

But only if he is also good with overall shaping and branch placement, right? Otherwise you just have a bunch of neatly wired branches (and note, I'm not saying that is what I see in Stacey's tree).

That's not quite true. I have seen what happens when one is a master at wiring but has the artistic eye and talent of a garbage man, knowing only the difference between compost and trash. Many years ago we had an individual in our club that had the most miraculous wiring skills, enough so many told him he should, in his words, go national. But his abilities to imagine an idea for a design ranked up there with those who clean port-o-pottys. Not meaning to speak ill of those who clean Port-o-Pottys but if it were not for them we would be doing it in the road;----- in tribute to the Beatles White Album.

You two are missing the point. This is not the Joshua Roth NO talent contest. This is for new talent. The title alone implies that they are talented individuals or they would not have thrown their hat in the ring. That is why I feel I can honestly critique it from my point of view. The fact alone that they have placed themselves out there for peer review is why I have written this. If you feel differently feel free to write your own post from your point of view. I still contend that six canopies are messy and one is very tidy, that alone seperates it from the rest. My opinion, whether right or wrong I stick by it.

 

[ChrisV]

It has a great trunk but is it really the best material or just something you would like to see as a developed tree in the future? Good material isn't always the most attractive one.
And I didn't pick it because he didn't make as much use of the movement as the others.. And because it is one of the easier trees in case of finding movement and balance.

But I think a lot of you still don't see I'm not criticizing you guys or seeing my point or that i'm not negatively judging your work.
I am simply giving my opinion and pointing out some things. Same as you all can do with my work and than I won't feel attacked. That is just how it goes when you show your work to the public. Everyone has his own opinion and that is good thing. Imagine a world without it.........

However I am not going to defend myself all the time so I think I've said all I want to say and do with it what you like.

 

[Smoke]

Ok let me bump in here for a sec.
With my earlier post I didn't want to criticize the work you guys done negatively, but more like positive feedback.
And yes I am the gent that said more work could have been done and trees could be more refined in the amount of time given.
Believe me I worked bigger yamadori in demo's and looked more refined after just 4 hours. Not to brag just saying.

I partly agree with the 1st post in this thread. However not keeping future development and health in mind bothers me.
First of all Bonsai is always working towards a future design that's why we take steps.
So rushing it because it has to wow people isn't bonsai to me and I know a lot of artist agree with me on that.
That is the reason they eliminated the wow factor in demo's etc. Health of the tree is most important.

Than comes the wiring. This is absolutely something that shouldn't be taken too lightly. Wiring a tree comes with a lot of stress for the tree. With every bend you make little cracks appear in the bark, cambium etc and need time to heal. Sloppy wire wont't fixate the branch as good and fast so more bends and movement have to be made to get into the desired position. This will also mean more small cracks that also mean more parts that can dry out and die off.
Simple as that. It's also a good thing to know that you always wire in the direction you want to bend the branch this also makes bending easier and lesser stress to the tree.

One of the most important things. Creativity. Use of material and use of movement.
In my opinion only the 5th and last tree had that. Although they had other flaws they were the most original and flowing. Good eye and use of material.
This is probably the most important thing when designing a tree. Just look at examples of of great bonsai it's all about flow and motion just as many other japanese arts.

Some trees had amazing trunks to start with but sadly used in the wrong angle. For example tree nr2 has great movement in the trunk and age in the bark but the two thick branches pointing upwards really disturb the flow and overall image. Using another angle could fix this easily.

Bonsai is 80% creativity and 20% horticultural because it is an art form. But has some guidelines if you want it to be bonsai.
And talent is something that you can not measure by one shaping a tree in a day like I said before it can only be measured over a longer period when one also masters the other 20%.

Deadwood not necessary at all to make good trees in the first place and only adds more to the composition when all other things are correct.

If you like to see what I mean by bonsai talent go to the FB page of Mario Komstra a real magician with trees.
At this point one of the most talented creative guys around and no he didn't make those trees in one day because he also understands all other aspects that come with bonsai.

I'm not saying you guys didn't do a good job, seriously I really like what you've done and I can understand the fun doing it and that is also very important.

Your ideas while worthy for the long term have no place in this competition. That is not the flavor of the event. This is a contest to find the best of the best, or those that wish to compete, with similarly sized trees. This contest is done with junipers for a reason. It is done so that they can afford a worthy tree in the time allotted with a tree that can take the punishment of a one day Hail Mary. This is not the time to be worrying about what it will look like two years from now, that is for someone else to do later. This is a one day contest in which people have to pull out all the stops to get the point across. If it is judged on the correct merits, a winner will evolve.

 

[Tona]

I felt the best "BONSAI" was #3. My reasons are shared above. Others have voiced their choices, but have not really done a good job of explaining why based on what a new talent competition should be about. I have provided my opinions on what some criteria should be looked at when making a choice. If you have other ideas you would like to add in how that choice would be made and what it should be based on I would love to hear it. I think it deserves discussion and that was not being discussed in the other thread.

If tree #3 didnt exist in this contest and pose such a stark contrast to the other 6 there would not even be a need for such discussion, because at that point it would be based solely on subjectivity.

People have to look at the talents as an overall process to that which was applied to the tree, and base decisions solely on that. Shapes are not a reason, deadwood without wire is not a reason, etc., etc. This is a bonsai talent contest not a tree contest.

You have to ask yourself if all these teachers were available to the public for the same price and your sore suit was wireing a tree to look like a finely groomed bonsai, (of which there are many right on this forum) who would you enlist for help? That is what a talent contest is supposed to do for this group. I think the judges looked past that aspect for some reason...

ooops, that was an inside thought....

Interesting stuff Al. I, too voted for tree number 3. I did however like tree number 5 as a second choice. I believe that was Ryan's tree (the winner). I'm not sure. I understood that the judging was by attendee vote, not by a dedicated judge and attendees could have multiple votes. I could be wrong. I didn't understand where a couple of the trees were going, but I am not as far along as you in this hobby.
Tona

 

[Poink88]

Of all the teachers California has produced, she is the most under rated and also the most honest of all the teachers..... Bonsai politics is not in her vocabulary.

I agree 100%. We are lucky that she adopted TTSBE trees and agreed to be our patron. Her annual visit (sometimes more) and her freely sharing information is just unprecedented. I always have fun talking to her.

 

[Smoke]

Interesting stuff Al. I, too voted for tree number 3. I did however like tree number 5 as a second choice. I believe that was Ryan's tree (the winner). I'm not sure. I understood that the judging was by attendee vote, not by a dedicated judge and attendees could have multiple votes. I could be wrong. I didn't understand where a couple of the trees were going, but I am not as far along as you in this hobby.
Tona

For the contest itself, the trees were voted on by competent judges. Biased sometimes but competent.

I will make a prediction right now that Ryan Nichols will be in Japan within five years.

 

[0soyoung]

Umm.

The contest is for the demonstration of artistic and technical skills,

not to make a bonsai, per se.


Right?

 

[Poink88]

I picked both 1st and 2nd (from the pics) like the judges...but I am still wrong.

 

[Smoke]

Umm.

The contest is for the demonstration of artistic and technical skills,

not to make a bonsai, per se.


Right?

no..........

 

[A Random User]

It has a great trunk but is it really the best material or just something you would like to see as a developed tree in the future? Good material isn't always the most attractive one.
And I didn't pick it because he didn't make as much use of the movement as the others.. And because it is one of the easier trees in case of finding movement and balance.

But I think a lot of you still don't see I'm not criticizing you guys or seeing my point or that i'm not negatively judging your work.
I am simply giving my opinion and pointing out some things. Same as you all can do with my work and than I won't feel attacked. That is just how it goes when you show your work to the public. Everyone has his own opinion and that is good thing. Imagine a world without it.........

However I am not going to defend myself all the time so I think I've said all I want to say and do with it what you like.

I don't feel in the slightest I nor anyone else is being attacked. I also don't think that you are being
Attacked. You are very much entitled to your views and those views are welcomed just as anyone else's
Views are welcome... but come now, you have written now on this post and my post two
Statements, where just about every other line contradicts the previous. I am not
Trying to insult you here, just trying to come to terms with what you
Are trying to say, that is all. The trees you like are awesome trees, and I can see why
You like them... I just don't understand why you like them, especially seeing that your reasoning
Here again contradicts the logic that you set forth. This is why I asked you to eloborate, in the
Hopes that I could better understand your views and perhaps determine where the communication
Is breaking down.

As far as tree #4, I am merely just passing along the views of the hundreds of people who saw the tree.
I sat right next to him during the whole competition, listened to everyone's comments that passed
By, as well as sat and listen to everyone discuss the tree when they were voting. And they all pretty much
Repeated verbatim what you said should be the criteria, about his tree that you feel it should be judged by.
So, this has nothing actually to do with my beliefs or views, of what makes or does not make a good tree. My
Personal views are that I made the best tree and I personally feel it is kind of a shame
That I did what is required of the contest in the amount of time given, and agree totally with
Smoke here that it is a shame, that other logic and reasoning for voting might of been taken into
Account.

I don't know if this is the case, but if "future development" was to be taken into
Account, then perhaps this needs to be told to those participating before hand. So,
Then we are all on the same page.. I would have taken a three hour , I am tired and also
Frustrated break as was done by some and not bothered to finished my tree, and just
Chopped it up to "future development". Or better yet I would have just put away my tools,
And just drawn a picture and placed it next to my unworked stock. I could of just said this
Is what it will look like with "future development", now who wants to do the work.

Seeing that you asked, this is my own personal feelings, and I feel Smoke
Couldn't of hit it more on the head of what these competitions are all about.
I just was reluctant towards saying so, because I don't want to come across
As a sore loser. This is how every other one day competition has been, and how
They have all been judged.

 

[coh]

You two are missing the point. This is not the Joshua Roth NO talent contest. This is for new talent. The title alone implies that they are talented individuals or they would not have thrown their hat in the ring. That is why I feel I can honestly critique it from my point of view. The fact alone that they have placed themselves out there for peer review is why I have written this. If you feel differently feel free to write your own post from your point of view. I still contend that six canopies are messy and one is very tidy, that alone seperates it from the rest. My opinion, whether right or wrong I stick by it.

I'm sorry, but you are not advancing your argument - you just keep restating it. Since this is not the "NO talent contest", we can assume that all the contestants have a range of skills, including wiring. So why should the final judgement be based primarily on that one skill over all the others? I'd rather have a checklist that weighed equally "wiring/finish" and "overall shape/artistry/creativity". There is a lot of subjectivity in there but I don't know of a way around that.

I've been looking at the pictures again after digesting this discussion. Stacey's tree definitely has the highest level of "finish", there's no doubt about that. But...and hopefully this won't be taken personally, but to me tree #5 is well ahead in overall shape/artistry/creativity (*). Very hard to quantify, but that's how I reacted when I first saw the pictures, and that's how I still feel after all this discussion. Maybe in the end they both wind up with the same score and tie for #1.

Now, if there is a set of specific written guidelines (and contestants should be made aware of them if they exist), then those rules should be followed. If the rules favor finish/wiring as Smoke would like, then Stacey should have won. If politics got in the way, that is a shame. If the rules are really vague, then you're at the mercy of the judges...which is not unusual in the art world. I have been painting for a number of years and have had paintings get rejected outright from one show by one judge, then get awarded best of show by another judge in another show. Such is life!

(*) Of course, all of our views are based on photos. Seeing the trees in person might give different impressions.

 

[A Random User]

Wanted to add one more bit of interesting trivia...
In last years competition the contestants all besides myself
Literally butchered the trees... they fine wired and reduced the
Trees down to absolutely no foilage in the process. Literally down
To where I am certain that most of the branches died as a result.
Taking away more than 90 percent of the foliage. I was unable to
Really participate in this debauchery, due to the fact that I spent
Ended up spending most of the day on the phone back home to
See how my wife was doing who ended up having to go through surgery
Out of the blue while I was there. On the very same day. Talk about
Luck... So, I didn't get a chance to really get to fine wiring, I think I
Only got to wire like two branches after doing jins and sharis...

The responses I got back on the trees from the judges was that mine
Was the most creative and I had used the material to the best advantage,
And because I actually had foliage left, mine had the best chance for
Future development... however... because I didn't finish, and did not
Remove all the foliage that the others had and had not done the fine
Wiring, this was the reason for me not winning...

So, ain't that a bitch... having said this, with all due respect to those who
Had participated, I wouldn't have removed as much as they had... I
Mean, even though I am from Florida, and we aren't really known for our
Juniper bonsai, I know enough to not remove what they did. Quite a few
Of them I know did die...

But, the real kicker and I will not mention names cause I know
They are like god to some here and have studied in Japan... was when
I had a chance to speak to of the judges later on and they told me that I left
To much foliage on the tree and that I should of done as the others did.
That and I qoute... in Japan they would never have left that much foliage on
The tree. Which pretty much went against everything I had ever heard from
Others who had been there and just about every book, vid etc. I had ever
Seen... So, go figure??? I guess I should of killed off my tree like they do in Japan

 

[Smoke]

I'm sorry, but you are not advancing your argument - you just keep restating it. Since this is not the "NO talent contest", we can assume that all the contestants have a range of skills, including wiring. So why should the final judgement be based primarily on that one skill over all the others? I'd rather have a checklist that weighed equally "wiring/finish" and "overall shape/artistry/creativity". There is a lot of subjectivity in there but I don't know of a way around that.

I've been looking at the pictures again after digesting this discussion. Stacey's tree definitely has the highest level of "finish", there's no doubt about that. But...and hopefully this won't be taken personally, but to me tree #5 is well ahead in overall shape/artistry/creativity (*). Very hard to quantify, but that's how I reacted when I first saw the pictures, and that's how I still feel after all this discussion. Maybe in the end they both wind up with the same score and tie for #1.

Now, if there is a set of specific written guidelines (and contestants should be made aware of them if they exist), then those rules should be followed. If the rules favor finish/wiring as Smoke would like, then Stacey should have won. If politics got in the way, that is a shame. If the rules are really vague, then you're at the mercy of the judges...which is not unusual in the art world. I have been painting for a number of years and have had paintings get rejected outright from one show by one judge, then get awarded best of show by another judge in another show. Such is life!

(*) Of course, all of our views are based on photos. Seeing the trees in person might give different impressions.

Could you please quote in its entirety where I have said that this competition should be based solely on wireing.

 

[Nybonsai12]

i read this thread and the other thread. All the artists are skilled and can make nice trees, I have no doubts of their abilities, they are artists. But I'm taking away that bonsai should have a 5 or 10 year contest, where contestants must work a tree on day one and then develop it for several years with a future specified finish date.

Wasn't there a 5 year challenge here on bnut? Something of the like? Imagine high caliber stock for high caliber participants like in the roth competition but also proving the skill of not overworking it, feeding it right, keeping it healthy, etc. isn't that a skill, or at least an ability?
I'd like to think thats part of being a master or even new talent