JBP in West Java need guidance

[Benny Lu]

Hello

I planted several JBP seeds in Q4 2019. Still have several trees from that batch today.
I think its time to thin out, so the interior could get some light.

Been learning from this forum (especially the 6 years contest), youtube, Jonas Blog, and google.

I live in Bandung, West Java Indonesia. Climate is warm and humid all year around.
We only have two seasons here:
- dry season, less rain
- rainy season, the monsoon

This tree below was planted from seed in December 2019. Moved to this huge pot in mid 2020, and been there since.
It’s 117cm height from the base, and the apex candle still pushing.


the top section is 75cm long (A)
previous season growth in B ? Different needle pattern.
All this will become sacrificial branch.


the base was shaded by the top portion of the tree and the pot itself. So I cut the pot last week.


I want to preserve the interior buds for future use, and keep the existing big low branch as sacrifice.





- is it save to cutback the unused branch now? Because winter/spring is non existing here, and I’ve read about timing, so…
- will it bud back? Considering its 3,5 years old
- or should I go with needle plucking?
- make it cascade using the low long branch?

any suggestions will be much appreciated

 

[MaciekA]

The growth you get on JBP in Java is pretty fantastic.

I think if this was my tree and I was faced with “poodle or chop?” I would at least poodle the leader (“poodle” meaning strip the needles on the tall sacrificial leader up until the very tip, then usually reduce the tip shoots down to 1). I poodle-strip on trees like this annually both in my own collection and as a student at a field growing operation, where there are many JBPs in the ground and whose growth we try to focus on basal regions. If you listen to the Bonsai Wire podcast you’ll note that in the recent episode Eric and Jonas talk about how “there’s a reason” that in Japan, growers of early JBP material tend to poodle/solo-shoot their sacrificials. The technique keeps sap flow from that top shoot relatively strong but not so strong as to suppress the growth of keep-for-bonsai regions below. In my own experience you can really erode such a leader considerably and still get benefit from it while shifting focus downwards.

I’m speculating now, so this is not advice, but I suspect you could take extremely drastic measures like chops or partial chops in your environment and probably get a lot of lower growth in response. You have very very strong growth and no fear of winter, which gives you options.

 

[Benny Lu]

I would at least poodle the leader (“poodle” meaning strip the needles on the tall sacrificial leader up until the very tip, then usually reduce the tip shoots down to 1).

all the way up until the very tip?

I’m thinking more like strip whole B section, and leave 1/4 of A section at the top. Should I wait until that apex finish pushing or do it gradually?


deal with cut back now and save the root work for next year I guess.

 

[MaciekA]

Your plan is very close to what I would do. Some growers, like Jonas for example, might even argue that you're ready for a new leader and that the current one would begin disassembly (i.e. terminate the tips entirely and cut back to some needles, or cut back to some intermediate sacrificial shoot to keep sap flow -- then next year finish the job with a chop).

Regarding timing (wait for candle->needle emergence or not?), I am not sure it really matters too much, because you have the bulk, you have the stored energy, you have immense vigor in the lower regions, and your JBP is continuously awake and able to respond to changes regardless of season.

From an Oregon perspective, you have an absolutely bumpin' vigorous tree here. But also, my pine mentors tend to say "work on the tree when the tree is in front of you", and then let the decision of work scope be a matter of evaluating how much growth there has been in the recent past (in your case, lots of strong growth). In Oregon, we might debate over now versus after needle push versus autumn, but IMO it matters somewhat less when you have this much growth already in the bank and you're trying to stimulate lower growth. My JBP mentors here in Oregon would be somewhat fearless with this tree.

If you can, definitely warm up more JBP projects so you can experiment frequently and get the right tuning for JBP-in-Java. It seems like you may be able to work on a faster schedule, so insights may come faster.

 

[Benny Lu]

strip some needles this morning, will do the rest this Sunday


I notice its dripping and sticky

 

[Potawatomi13]

Personally rather than sticky fingers and messy tree use cut paste on cuts.

 

[Shibui]

Dripping and sticky is normal for pines after cutting. The resins help seal wounds.
The A and B section is likely all one season growth. At the change of growth each year we get those bare sections as the new candles start to grow but that may be different in tropical growth area.

 

[Benny Lu]

Dripping and sticky is normal for pines after cutting. The resins help seal wounds.
The A and B section is likely all one season growth. At the change of growth each year we get those bare sections as the new candles start to grow but that may be different in tropical growth area.

needle plucked, some branches cut

thinking about prune back hard more
but I could use some opinions



I’ve read that JBP can be cut back and backbud to previous years needle (2-3 years old needle?) where do I cut? Yellow/red? Before these needle turns brown

 

[Shibui]

The red cut will give almost certain new buds because those are young, strong needles but you still have a long, bare branch. You may even get a couple of new buds back along the branch after that red cut.
Yellow cut will probably give new buds . The needles back there are older so not as healthy and may not always produce new buds. Even so, it looks like there are some backups way down closer to the trunk so even if the yellow chop fails to bud, those lower shoots should still grow and IMHO they are even better replacement because that reduces the long, bare branch even more.

JBP can often produce buds on older, bare sections of trunk and branches. Needles produce buds easier but you can often get buds from where needles have fallen. @River's Edge grows lots of black pines and has posted some great info about pruning JBP to get lots of back budding. Canada is obviously very different from Java but some principals may be transferrable.

Just be aware:
Pruning the lowest branch may not produce new buds when there is a strong growing apex above. Most trees aim to grow tall and strong so they often do not put effort into lower branches if the apex is strong. For best back budding the top needs to be pruned at the same time as low branches where you want new buds.

 

[Benny Lu]

Just be aware:
Pruning the lowest branch may not produce new buds when there is a strong growing apex above. Most trees aim to grow tall and strong so they often do not put effort into lower branches if the apex is strong. For best back budding the top needs to be pruned at the same time as low branches where you want new buds.

thank you for replying, means a lot


So it has something to do with the apex leader. For the moment, the apex still has about 25cm of needle cluster at the top, feel nervous about plucking it more.
Somehow newbie like me feels reluctant to make a big chop, the what if if you know what I mean.
In this case I think it would be wise to leave this particular tree alone for the moment, see how it'll respond. Better late than rushing.

Meanwhile, I can work on another class of 2019 pines that I have, along with 2020-2021 batch, some of them really need repoting (collander starts deteriorating) & thinning.
I just realize some of them is JRP/hybrid, I thought all of them are JBP.

Some of them dormant, no visible white root tip/foliar growth.
Some of them are pushing shoots.
Some cuttings from pruning already turns brown, some cuttings stays green.

They will keep me busy

 

[Shibui]

So it has something to do with the apex leader. For the moment, the apex still has about 25cm of needle cluster at the top, feel nervous about plucking it more.
Somehow newbie like me feels reluctant to make a big chop, the what if if you know what I mean.
In this case I think it would be wise to leave this particular tree alone for the moment, see how it'll respond. Better late than rushing.

I totally understand. Very few JBP growers in tropical areas so there will be little guidance and you will need to find out by trial and error what works and what does not.
Occasionally we get others asking similar so it would be great if you keep posting results here to provide valuable tips for others trying pines in similar climates.

I just realize some of them is JRP/hybrid, I thought all of them are JBP.

We have seen pine crosses in the past. JRP and JBP grow naturally in separate areas with only one small overlap in natural distribution in Japan so normally hybrid seed doesn't happen. Now that both species are planted in gardens there is much more chance of hybrid seed if cones are collected from trees in parks or city areas.

 

[Benny Lu]

updates: I made the cut back to backup shoots for that particular branch.



meanwhile I can work on other pines that I have

Being a newbie who wants to try everything.
This one was inspired by Eric’s youtube, Jonas Blog, and markyscott in his pine contest thread.
Without knowing what the next step will be, I gave it a try.

Only try two exposed root, the other one have failed tipped over, but I still have the tree.
This pine below is what the other one that I considered not-failed (yet).

It was planted in this PVC pipes in May 2022, about two months after germination I think.


and this is the pine now in June 2023, the trunk is about a marker size at the moment (1.5cm)


It appears to be a red pine. Seed label was JBP.
Already has a piece of wire anchored down to the bottom of the collander during planting, I thought it’d useful to add some movement to the roots later. For now that wire is still straight, and sticking out of the tube a bit.

Questions:
- I’m tempted to remove the first top PVC section to take a look at the roots. Should I wait another year? Just currious to see if the roots are big enough.
- thinking about spreading roots inside the collander. Because it seems the roots in collander hasn’t spread evenly. It grows around the middle section beneath the tube. How do I do that? Turn it upside down?

 

[Shibui]

Roots can be exposed any time provided the feeder tips are still in the soil below. Exposed roots will still thicken just the same as trunks do depending on how much food and water travels past so root thickening has nothing to do with being buried and everything to do with growth above and below.
I would get exposed root style uncovered sooner rather than later so you can do any adjustments. Exposed root style is not just about having roots. Roots must have attractive lines and shapes and must also compliment the trunk above. They will need as much thought and attention as the branches of any bonsai if it is to look good.

 

[Benny Lu]

been re-reading old threads in this past weeks


Since I live in different part of the world, I think I need to determine seasons by visually examine each tree, take actions based on what the tree looks like at a time
Still can't find the right timing for repotting, pruning, etc. Young trees is all I have (less than 4 years old).


These past 3 years of growing pines from seed I've learned something (at least I kill less tree ). And its been fun. I want to learn more.
I think I need to pick one less attractive tree, hard prune it &, put it smaller pot to experiment further, learn from it and apply it to other tree if the timing is right.
Creating my own 6-years-from-seed shohin pine, just for self satisfaction.




updates:
tree in post #1, it's been a week and no new buds visible, maybe the top growth is too strong? Pulled more needle from the top also.


tree in post #12, I removed two sections from the top, apply some wire to the roots, and put back some media at the top. Will work on this tree next week, during national holiday





will post pictures next week.

 

[Benny Lu]

just found out tree in post #12 is not even a red pine, it has 3 needles!
needle length is much longer, softer, lighter in color, and it has 3 needles per cluster

seems like all of my 2021 batch is 3 needles pine, the seeds got mixed up somehow from the vendor
I think JBP seeds sown in 2021 was no longer viable, and this 3-needle pines germinated.

Have no idea which 3-needles is it, perhaps ponderosa?

I notice this 3-needles pine grows faster than my JBP.

 

[Benny Lu]

updates

no new buds yet


this is what I have in mind



Main trunk line in blue

 

[Benny Lu]

The three needle pine after exposing some roots.
Have no idea what pine this is.

gonna experiment with it

 

[Benny Lu]

Another JBP for learning, this one is from the same batch as the tallest. Trunk at the base is 3cm (1.5”) more or less. 37cm tall.
Maybe I’ll put this tree in small pot next year, so I can learn more from it. And hope I’ll do right things to other JBP that I have left.



prune some branches so the interior get light.
Did I do it right?

When pruning I got confused which branch to cut and which branch to keep. Suggestions?

 

[Shibui]

prune some branches so the interior get light.
Did I do it right?

When pruning I got confused which branch to cut and which branch to keep. Suggestions?

At this stage it probably does not matter where you prune provided there's still some green left. Plenty of chances for it to recover from almost anything. Your pruning looks OK. When the stubs die back a little cut again at an angle so there's no blunt ends.

The pine still has that 'whorl' of branches all round the trunk. Best to thin out so that area does not thicken too much.
Considerations to choose branches to keep:

• Branches on outside of bends.
• Short branches or branches with plenty of needles closer to the base.
• Branches not directly above or below other nearby branches to give a good spread around the trunk over the whole trunk.
• Fewer branches toward the front of the tree.

 

[Benny Lu]

The pine still has that 'whorl' of branches all round the trunk. Best to thin out so that area does not thicken too much.
Considerations to choose branches to keep:

• Branches on outside of bends.
• Short branches or branches with plenty of needles closer to the base.
• Branches not directly above or below other nearby branches to give a good spread around the trunk over the whole trunk.
• Fewer branches toward the front of the tree.

thank you for taking your time replying


indeed, trying to avoid those whorl in the future

• cut the one inside the bends, got it
• cut the long one, so future branching has short internodes
• I understand better now, so when viewed from above, the tree has branches that come from multiple locations.
• fewer branches toward the front of the tree, no eye poking branch

it comes to determining the front of the tree. And to do that, we need nebari which this tree doesn't have. That is 3 years old lesson.
And thats why I chose this one to experiment with.

Alright, will keep that in mind when it comes to prune another tree.