JBP-Humble Beginnings From Seed

[sikadelic]

Good news! I performed the cutting technique on these guys in the 3rd week of April and they all survived. Looks like I will have 7 to develop and learn with. They have shown signs of new roots and growth in the center of the seedling for about 3 weeks now. They are in full sun for about 4 hours, 2 hours of shade, and then 4 or 5 more hours of full sun. I also just barely fertilized them with a small sprinkler of my miracle gro mix as I fed my other trees last Sunday. I had been watering twice per day but will now move to once daily as I noticed a small bit of yellowing on a couple of the needles throughout the bunch.

 

[jeanluc83]

They look good. You are about a month and a half ahead of me. I just did my cuttings this past week. I’ll see in about a month if they have taken.

What was your overall success?

 

[sikadelic]

They look good. You are about a month and a half ahead of me. I just did my cuttings this past week. I’ll see in about a month if they have taken.

What was your overall success?

Well I started with about 40 seeds and around 30 sprouted. I lost the rest due to damping off and too much moisture. I'm down to 7 now so about 18%. This is my first time trying pine from seed so I learned a lot along the way. Next year should be much better.

 

[tom tynan]

Damping off can be a real problem with pine seeds. It is very hard to prevent. I have had good success in NY getting germination - but not much sucess afterwards. This year I sowed a bunch of red pine and black pine during later winter; in a wooden box in the ground - covered with chicken wire. I have almost 100% germination and survival. The box has no bottom and is filled with typical bonsai soil; pumice, lava etc. The reason I tried this is because I have eastern white pine seeds germinating all around the house...so if they germinate naturally why not in this method? The problem as I see it is that the process of growing in small container makes the fungus perhaps more likely. Also the seeds need a really cold period of germination. I have always tried the refrigerator method for the cold dormancy period. Perhaps also ventilation is a problem when starting them in early spring in containers.

The reason for making a cutting out of the pine seedling is to cause the first bud break low on the seedling - this results in very low branches which help build masss at the base of the tree - therefore more mass lower - better taper later as the tree grows. When the seedling shows violet color or when the center needles start to appear is the supposed time to strike the cutting. Check out the bonsai tonight blog for the best online summary of this technique. Great photos on that blog.......best of luck with your seedlings..Tom


ps. Jarrod... re-read your posts...yes..I believe the plastic dome causes the fungus to spread; once this happens no amount of fungicide can help. I believe growing them in the ground alleviated this problem. Of course at some point I have to get them out and perhaps move to smaller pots to control the seedling etc. The course lava/pumice should make this fairly easy I hope......Tom

 

[Dirty Nails]

Several years ago I got 20 JBP seeds to germinate, they were doing well inside under lights. Then I put them outside and in one night everyone of them was eaten by squirrels. I assume it was them but it might have been rabbits.

 

[jeanluc83]

I’ve had good success with my pitch pine seedlings. I ordered 100 seeds and have probably 70 or 80 seedlings. I did 36 seedling cuttings and the rest I will just let grow. I was surprised with the success but I now have the happy problem of figuring out what to do with the extras.

I have had no problems with damping off. I only kept the dome on until the seeds started to sprout and I tried to keep them in full sun. I also have given them a couple shots of Daconil every couple of weeks. So far the strategy has worked. I’ll see how my long term success is.

 

[Catalyst05]

I am also starting several flats of Japanese Black Pine from seed. Does anyone know if, after you take the seedling cuttings, whether you continue to treat the cuttings with B1 and fungicide? I noticed, in the Stone Lantern Black Pine book and online posts at Bonsai Tonight, that both B1 and fungicide are applied in the pre-cutting stage, but no one mentions whether they continue after cuttings are made.

In the past I have had some "mushy stems" (the portion inserted into the ground after taking the cutting) causing, or resulting from, death of the cuttings. I was wondering if I should maybe mix some daconil in with the "dip-n-grow" rooting hormone when I take the cutting, or maybe continue use of daconil after the cutting is taken. Any suggestions/experiences?

 

[sbarnhardt]

I’ve had good success with my pitch pine seedlings. I ordered 100 seeds and have probably 70 or 80 seedlings. I did 36 seedling cuttings and the rest I will just let grow. I was surprised with the success but I now have the happy problem of figuring out what to do with the extras.

is.

I'd be interested in seeing if we could work up a deal for pitch pine seedlings PM if interested.

Barney in NC

 

[sikadelic]

I am also starting several flats of Japanese Black Pine from seed. Does anyone know if, after you take the seedling cuttings, whether you continue to treat the cuttings with B1 and fungicide? I noticed, in the Stone Lantern Black Pine book and online posts at Bonsai Tonight, that both B1 and fungicide are applied in the pre-cutting stage, but no one mentions whether they continue after cuttings are made.

In the past I have had some "mushy stems" (the portion inserted into the ground after taking the cutting) causing, or resulting from, death of the cuttings. I was wondering if I should maybe mix some daconil in with the "dip-n-grow" rooting hormone when I take the cutting, or maybe continue use of daconil after the cutting is taken. Any suggestions/experiences?

I noted that the pine book says to treat 20 days after performing the seedling cutting technique. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I will probably spray again just to make sure in another month or so. I don't think it will hurt as long as you closely follow the directions for a commercial mix or be moderate with home remedies.

 

[sikadelic]

Well my clumsy ass did the unspeakable and knocked over one of my seedlings when watering this evening. I bumped it with the hose and down goes Frazier. One of the good things to come of it is that I had the sense to take a quick pic to share with you all to note the root growth in 2 months time after cutting the seedlings. I will add that this sense came after my fair share of swearing.

I put it back in a quick mix of turface and pumice which is all I had left after potting up my recently collected trees. Not ideal, but I'm hoping it will survive the stress.

 

[Catalyst05]

I feel your pain. On the bright side though, the article in Bonsai Today #12 says that about a month or so after you make cuttings you should/could gently uproot the plants to arrange the roots without causing too much stress. Maybe just keep it out of too much sun for a while?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I think it should be okay.

 

[sikadelic]

I feel your pain. On the bright side though, the article in Bonsai Today #12 says that about a month or so after you make cuttings you should/could gently uproot the plants to arrange the roots without causing too much stress. Maybe just keep it out of too much sun for a while?

I wasn't aware of that so I may do that with the other 6 I have. Thanks.

 

[Catalyst05]

In the Stone Lantern Pine Masters book the black pine article says that there is an "optional" pruning of the roots you can do after the initial cutting, of course they don't really say when to prune, or give any more details (unfortunately).

In Bonsai Today #12, however, different authors focused a little more on their approach for doing seedling-cuttings and developing large-trunk black pines. Instead of doing a second "cutting" like in the Masters Pine book, they waited 4 weeks after doing the initial cutting to repot and arrange the roots. This way, the pines could use the rest of the growing season and early winter to recover, and have a very strong growing season the next year.

Using the Master's Pine method, by contrast, the pines would be repotted/wired/roots arranged in spring of the 2nd year, likely leading to more recovery time and a later first flush of growth during the 2nd year.

Another reason why you'd probably want to rearrange roots early is that you'd rather kill the plant earlier than later (if at all). It's depressing to spend all winter nurturing/planning for your pine only to kill it in spring by doing the dramatic Masters Pine approach and repot + wire. Of course, you could just follow the Masters Pine book, but space things out a bit more, doing the repot in spring and waiting another year to wire. All good things to experiment with.

I would do all three options, leave some seedlings alone, try some the Master's Book way, and also experiment doing the Bonsai Today #12 way. That way you'd really learn something for future seedlings.

 

[Neli]

If you want more pines when you have around 8cm growth above the first needle you can plant the top 6cm as cutting. They root very well, and you will get multiple buds from the cut point.

 

[jeanluc83]

Another reason why you'd probably want to rearrange roots early is that you'd rather kill the plant earlier than later (if at all). It's depressing to spend all winter nurturing/planning for your pine only to kill it in spring by doing the dramatic Masters Pine approach and repot + wire.

This is the main reason I have chosen to plant more seeds than I need. That way if I do loose a few it won't be all that painful.

If you want more pines when you have around 8cm growth above the first needle you can plant the top 6cm as cutting. They root very well, and you will get multiple buds from the cut point.

I've heard that this technique works well.

Is it possible to take cuttings when decanaling older pines? I heard that they don't root well.

 

[Neli]

Best is using juvenile growth...Ones the cuttings is rooted you can take cutting from it as well as from the new shoots of the bottom part....those will be the easiest parts to root.

 

[cmeg1]

Well my clumsy ass did the unspeakable and knocked over one of my seedlings when watering this evening. I bumped it with the hose and down goes Frazier. One of the good things to come of it is that I had the sense to take a quick pic to share with you all to note the root growth in 2 months time after cutting the seedlings. I will add that this sense came after my fair share of swearing.

I put it back in a quick mix of turface and pumice which is all I had left after potting up my recently collected trees. Not ideal, but I'm hoping it will survive the stress.

It should be fine.Do not give up on it even if the needles and all change to a red color.I know when I uprooted mine they all changed to a red color,but the following spring changed back to green.Here is pictures from my first attempt at JBP from a few years ago.Crazy colores.These were not seedling cutting.

 

[sikadelic]

Wow. If you hadn't shared that I would have definitely tossed mine out if they turned that color. Very interesting!

 

[sikadelic]

Just a few update pics on the seedlings. They have proved to be rather tough and even survived all being uprooted by my 3 year old about 2 months ago. He flipped the stand looking for "fwogs" so I couldn't harp on him. Such is life.

Anyhoo, they haven't missed a beat aside from the one smaller seedling that I knocked over earlier in the year. The others have grown well and I even have a small side branch forming on a couple of them.