JBP advice needed

I am jealous of the trees that you have available for that price. Trees like that would be really, really expensive in America. They aren't even show pieces or anything, just stupid expensive regular bonsai.
I don't think I mentioned above but this one was £500 ($632 ish), I actually thought it was quite expensive but justified it as its imported from Japan and from one of the more expensive and high regarded award winning UK bonsai people.

Its the most I have spent on a single tree, almost double my previously most expensive tree (from the same seller)

Looking online a can see a lot of less developed material for around 400 so I think I got a good deal all told

I guess the grass is always greener because I am often jealous of trees that come up for sale on here over your side of the pond!
 
The picture does not show any signs of being cork bark as far as I can see. Should be well and truly showing bark by now. See what turns up.
When and how to fertilize depends on what product you use. Good commercial growers should be fertilizing regularly so immediate fert should not be be essential, On the other hand, fertilizing is both expensive and takes time so some commercial operations can cut costs by skimping a bit. In any case, adding a dose of fert as recommended will not hurt any time.
Fert for advanced trees changes as the aim is often to reduce and control growth rather than boost huge growth rates as we do for developing stock. Again. fert response is slow and longer term so a few doses of something different won't cause problems that can't be handled later. Also note ongoing fertilizer wars with everyone having different ideas indicating that there's more than one way to fertilize bonsai successfully.
Impossible to estimate ages of bonsai as growth rates vary depending where it was grown and the techniques used during development. Sometimes we can count back on pine branches and estimate age as they put on distinct new growth each year. Pruning can sometimes remove several years' growth so that method is not totally reliable.

Great call to take the tree to a workshop. Almost impossible to see just where and how the branches are growing from a photo when branching is so dense so hands on advice will usually get much better results.
 
Fert for advanced trees changes as the aim is often to reduce and control growth rather than boost huge growth rates as we do for developing stock
Advanced trees is something I have no experience with, everything i have is in development, should I feed less often or less strength or maybe both? I have 5-5-5 and 3.5-3.5-3.5

I admit from the pics I thought it was standard jbp it wasn't until I seen my receipt I noticed it said cork bark, indeed just waiting to see what turns up.

Thank you @Shibui


@Deep Sea Diver thank you for the link, it seems Jonas has some success with a second flush, I don't expect this to be likely in my climate so I am also researching how double flush pines respond here and how we can balance and control vigour,

I understand that a bud that doesn't grow til next spring is likely to be more vigorous than if it opened late in the year
 
Curious. How was this determined visually, or is there data, which would be interesting to see.

25C appears to be generally shown as the optimal temperature of photosynthesis for most conifers (not at altitude) at present.

As shown, JPB (chart for 2 firs) could certainly be growing above 32C, yet it is often considered that the photosynthesis rate for conifers falls off as temperatures exceed 30C fairly steeply. For example:

View attachment 496845

In any event the fertilizer regime stated is somewhat conservative due to being a newly owned tree.

Imho depending upon the type and amount fertilizer used, and one’s experiences with trees at these temperatures, fertilizing at higher temperatures above 32C is somewhat like walking a tightrope... Risking root damage etc for not a lot of gain.

Anyways just one person’s opinion.

cheers
DSD sends
That was just my observation from growing JBP and not scientific. My JBP are still growing when the high are in the triple digits temperature for a two or three weeks now. Maybe the world optimal is a bit of a stretch here but I can't imagine that they slow down when the temp is 89 or 90 degrees.
 
Received a message that the tree is being dispatched today, I'm really excited!

I had asked the seller a couple of questions about when it was last repotted or due a new repot

They suggested I 'slip pot as soon as possible and repot in february'

What are you guys thoughts on this? would the September workshop be too late in the year to slip pot? Would it be detrimental to needle thin, possibly wire and slip pot at the same time in SEP?

Would it be better to slip pot now and work in SEP?

Wait til Feb?

sorry for all the questions I just REALLY want to do right by this tree
 
That was just my observation from growing JBP and not scientific. My JBP are still growing when the high are in the triple digits temperature for a two or three weeks now. Maybe the world optimal is a bit of a stretch here but I can't imagine that they slow down when the temp is 89 or 90 degrees.
Yes it was a stretch, it’s really hard to gauge level of growth. Just posted that data to to put it on the record

Also many trees build up momentum during the active growing season and end up drawing on internal stores in difficult situations …and likely still trying to perk along …so immediate observations are somewhat nebulous…

…and there’s the bonsai wrinkle considering the artificial conditions many of us use like shade cloth, watering and misting the tree and ground that literally lower needle, media and root temperatures… in these cases scientific observations of trees in the wild vs bonsai do not directly translate.

Finally not saying your trees aren’t doing well as they are likely more acclimated to the climate, …but doing their best.. that is an entirely different story.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
Received a message that the tree is being dispatched today, I'm really excited!

I had asked the seller a couple of questions about when it was last repotted or due a new repot

They suggested I 'slip pot as soon as possible and repot in february'
It’s the present owners tree so they know best

If the seller says to slip pot ASAP, please find out from the seller the media, match it as close as possible and slip pot away.

It’s likely old media and/or root bound and the seller doesn’t think the media has good percolation.

In these cases I gently drill holes or poke holes in the old root ball and back fill with media to improve percolation. The added percolation and media will give a good stopgap environment to get the tree through the winter in good shape.. given good caregiving.

Wait til Feb?
Repot in Feb as recommended.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
should I feed less often or less strength or maybe both? I have 5-5-5 and 3.5-3.5-3.5
Less often or less strength amounts to much the same thing from the tree's point of view. Check the relative dilution rates of the 2 fertilizers mentioned. If mixing strength of the 3.5 is twice that of the 5 then the resulting solution is actually stronger. Just because the numbers are smaller does not mean it will be weaker after mixing.
I see you have fallen for the equal ratio con. Plants do not use the 3 major nutrients in equal amounts so lots of the P and K in those mixes is actually wasted. Does not mean it is bad for the plants, just wasteful of resources.
Balanced fertilizer from plant point of view does not mean equal. It means the balanced ratios that plants use. Plenty other threads dealing with this debate.
 
Tree has arrived and I am very happy with the purchase thank you everybody who has commented I probably would not have bought it without your help!

It is definitely cork bark or maybe grafted cork bark though its tricky to get a picture of the heavily corked upper trunk which seems to give some inverse taper at the angles I originally seen

The needles are much smaller than I expected and I can see the obvious new needles 20230704_132532.jpg20230704_132720.jpg
 

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Curious. How was this determined visually, or is there data, which would be interesting to see.

25C appears to be generally shown as the optimal temperature of photosynthesis for most conifers (not at altitude) at present.

As shown, JPB (chart for 2 firs) could certainly be growing above 32C, yet it is often considered that the photosynthesis rate for conifers falls off as temperatures exceed 30C fairly steeply. For example:

View attachment 496845

In any event the fertilizer regime stated is somewhat conservative due to being a newly owned tree.

Imho depending upon the type and amount fertilizer used, and one’s experiences with trees at these temperatures, fertilizing at higher temperatures above 32C is somewhat like walking a tightrope... Risking root damage etc for not a lot of gain.

Anyways just one person’s opinion.

cheers
DSD sends
I always find discussions about this misleading, because I look at my trees and see plenty growing while we've been at 95-100 for weeks (34-37c really). Perhaps some is because instead of saying photosynthesis drops off like you did, people say grows stops in high temps, which isn't correct.

I suppose that is because I'm a layman who doesn't understand the full intricacies of plant growth.

I.e. a tree can still produce foliage/buds during a pause or drop in photosynthesis, we Clearly see this via decandling. We know trees rely on reserves.

We also have a pretty good idea that root growth increases when needle growth slows in pines (see - Jonas video presentation that was posted a few weeks back).

My understanding is that fertilizers only purpose is to support photosynthesis, is this correct? This is why fertilizer during high temps would be fruitless? What would the danger to the roots though?
 
I always find discussions about this misleading, because I look at my trees and see plenty growing while we've been at 95-100 for weeks (34-37c really). Perhaps some is because instead of saying photosynthesis drops off like you did, people say grows stops in high temps, which isn't correct.

Some awfully good questions that are difficult to answer simply, because of the interconnectedness of different variables we balance when keeping a bonsai alive… and at high temperatures.

I’ll try my best, but don’t promise this explanation will be entirely free of miscues. If so, my apologies in advance and I look forward to corrections with clear examples.

Starting with a few basics. (Please bear with me.)

Bonsai aren‘t kept like wild trees. We grow a tree in artificial conditions.

We use artificial conditions to attain our goals and hopefully keep our bonsai healthy at the same time. Watering and fertilizing trees frequently are both artificial conditions, necessary for our trees which are kept in small pots… and our design goals.

During normal conditions this is easy to do. But there are times a careful balancing act is done between attaining our goals for our trees and their health. Styling/pruning events are the usual examples of this.

It is at temperature extremes where hobbyists walk a more difficult tightrope where our trees health can easily go out of balance.

This is due to the tree’s reaction to the extreme conditions. Normally, in extreme heat

Photosynthesis slows down as temperatures increase. A tree is essentially a biochemical engine. When the engine gets hot it doesn’t work well, proteins get misshapen, water/gas exchange is altered, and the organism focuses on ramping up transpiration to cool the tree ‘factory’ itself.….

The tree is shifting more and more of the available water towards the increased transpiration needs to just keep the xylem flow intact so water can evaporate in the needle/leaf cells to keep cool. Here’s where our watering bonsai helps keep the trees living. The tree is essentially acting like a misting station. Water flowing up the pipes (xylem) from its source (available water in the media)… to evaporate out the needle/leaf stomata, taking heat with it and producing a cooling effect.

With the biochemical engine slowing down, not as many nutrients are needed. It’s in a lifesaving mode. Tossing fertilizing into the mix is essentially creating an osmotic imbalance between the media fluid and the cells of the roots. The more water that is pulled out of the media into the roots the greater the imbalance becomes. The more fertilizer added… makes the situation worse.

Note … neglecting the effect of evaporation in the media increasing the fertilizer imbalance and not watering enough just to simplify the explanation.

In other words the fertilizer salts are creating a condition of less percentage water molecules in the solution outside the cells compared to inside the root cells.

As the imbalance becomes too great a couple things happen. The roots cells give up water to the media. The root cells start to desiccate… and the pressure to draw in the water in the xylem cooling system continues to try to pull water up the tree.

So damage to the roots. Worst case air pockets form in the xylem creating cavitation.

In a normal condition eventually things get too hot and the biochemical engine slows to a halt.

Around this time the needle/leaf stomata close due to the heat and/or drought stress normally induced at high temperatures.… a lifesaving measure to prevent cavitation from occurring in the xylem.

I hope this helps answer your questions and wish you all a happy Birthday (America’s that is)

cheers
DSD sends
 
Is it normal on these types of trees for so many branches to come from what seems to be the same point?

There are bends etc so it could be an illusion but the bark also seems thicker above the branches (see pic above)
 
So, I asked the seller about the soil mix for slip pot and was told further advice that would contradict what I have learned to be believed on here.

I can see the current soil is very sandy, in fact it is sand, apparently this is common in the southern islands of Japan such as Takamatsu.

The seller suggested slip pot with their usual soil mix, (which I have already), 30% akadama, grit such as fuji grit, pumice. With a fair bit of organic compost mixed in extra.

the seller has imported trees for over 40 years and believes this mix will be important to surviving the winter in the UK for the first year so I am most likely going to follow their advice as I have no other local guidance to contradict their advice.

Through the summer I can manage easily enough by controlling my watering but I admit I am wary about our rainy season with a more organic mix, although some of my stronger seedlings are in more organic mixes too.
 
Is it normal on these types of trees for so many branches to come from what seems to be the same point?

There are bends etc so it could be an illusion but the bark also seems thicker above the branches (see pic above)
Normal… well yes this normally happens, in bonsai this is often clalled a cartwheel and usually happens when multiple buds are pushed ina season and they are not pruned down to two, one up and one sideways.

However, some trees have really short internodes and each succeeding years growth can be very close to that of the former year.

cheers
DSD sends
 
Is it normal on these types of trees for so many branches to come from what seems to be the same point?
Normal but not totally desirable.
As mentioned, pines develop lots of buds and then shoots from decandling points. Normally we remove all except 2 to open the structure and reduce swelling but leaving more can give a more dense, saleable tree and will also probably thicken the trunk and branches. Good for sellers but not so good for bonsai. Your challenge now will be to sort out which to cut and which to keep and still have a reasonable structure.
There are bends etc so it could be an illusion but the bark also seems thicker above the branches (see pic above)
If this is a cork bark it will almost certainly be grafted onto standard JPB. Below the graft it will have normal black pine bark. Above it will develop the wings distinctive of corky bark variety. The change may look ok or may look terrible depending where the graft is located, trunk bends and how the branches are placed.

It will be interesting to see what it looks like when styled.
 
I think some may be close internodes can see a couple of bends bringing them closer, but I assume that if the internodes are close enough together inverse taper is still a concern?

My main concern is ruining the canopy when correcting the branches, I am happy with the silhouette but know the branching is not ideal.

What makes it worse is the cork starts with the whorl so it already goes thicker here, the canopy hides this quite well and removing branches would reveal the thickening more.
 
So, I asked the seller about the soil mix for slip pot and was told further advice that would contradict what I have learned to be believed on here.

I can see the current soil is very sandy, in fact it is sand, apparently this is common in the southern islands of Japan such as Takamatsu.

The seller suggested slip pot with their usual soil mix, (which I have already), 30% akadama, grit such as fuji grit, pumice. With a fair bit of organic compost mixed in extra.

the seller has imported trees for over 40 years and believes this mix will be important to surviving the winter in the UK for the first year so I am most likely going to follow their advice as I have no other local guidance to contradict their advice.

Through the summer I can manage easily enough by controlling my watering but I admit I am wary about our rainy season with a more organic mix, although some of my stronger seedlings are in more organic mixes too.

Why do you feel the tree needs to be slip potted?
 
@Paradox Following advice from the seller, I was not going to name the seller but when I asked more questions he made a video to answer


basically he claims low chance of surviving winter in current soil (sand) or small pot in the UK climate, also states that nearer Tokyo trees come in akadama and do not need slip pot. he refers to 40 years importing and also says to add some organic to the mix for this winter which can be left out next spring at proper repot.

I am conflicted as it goes against my understanding but advice above was that seller knows best
 
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