Japanese Black Pine Training - opinions - youtube

[Brian Van Fleet]

You may be correct - in the literal scientific sense. I don't know. Frankly, I don't know what half the words you used actually mean! (That's due to my ignorance of the proper biological terms.)

My definitions of "adventitious" vs "needle" buds are commonly used by us non-scientists to describe the different buds that JBP have.

I don't know who coined the terms "adventitious", "needle buds" or "decandling". No matter. The important thing is to convey the concept.

You didn't coin the terms, but you have been very adamant in their use around here. So let's clear it up with a simple botanical discussion. It's not that difficult, and if you're teaching, it wouldn't hurt to understand a few basic terms:

Bud names by location:
Apical: top terminal bud
Terminal: bud at the end of branch
Axillary/lateral: bud at leaf axils
Adventitious: buds anywhere else, and can include former axillary buds.

Bud names by status:
Accessory: next to the terminal buds (The "whorl" of pine buds. One terminal bud surrounded by accessory buds)
Resting: formed last year to grow this year
Latent/dormant: resting for more than a year (the rings around Japanese Maple have these)
Pseudoterminal: one which takes over when the terminal is removed

Needle buds, as you specifically use the term, are in fact axillary buds; which could be adventitious, if the needles surrounding the bud are gone. Calling them "axillary needle buds" would not be incorrect.

Adventitious buds, as you use the term, are actually resting/accessory buds, and even axillary buds. It is less likely they are actually adventitious buds, because, by definition, adventitious buds are not terminal or axillary. My understanding is that summer "decandling" activates "resting/accessory buds", and with any luck, some "axillary buds".

 

[Vance Wood]

Anthony,

Growing and Refining are two different Phases of Development of JBP. Once you start decandling, little thickening of the trunk and branches will occur. That's because the tree will have to expend so much of its energy to replace to removed foliage.

In your climate, with the lack of a winter season, the annual growth cycle of JBP is different. As I have told you before, you would do best by contacting those in Hawaii and inquire about their training techniques.

The author of this particular video appears to have a limited knowledge of JBP care. He has a clue, but as I mentioned, he has some misunderstandings as well. And the tree he was using as demonstration material had needlecast, long internodes, very little interior foliage and branching. If that is what he considers a good JBP, I would recommend you find another mentor.

This is of course the curx of the problem. People using one technique, because it's sexy and they have seen it in a video, to accomplish another thing with their tree, in need of a totally different approach.

Very few of these incidents actually manage to clearly define that this process or that process is used for a tree in this or that particular stage of development, or point out that these processes may not be interchangeable. Because so much research and development has been done on the JBP the entire play book on JBP tends to be the gospel for all two-needle Pine development. The truth is this is not universally true. Many things in bonsai are species specific in-spite of the similarities, and the expected responses may or may or may not be predictable according to the JBP play book.

 

[Solange]

You may be correct - in the literal scientific sense. I don't know. Frankly, I don't know what half the words you used actually mean! (That's due to my ignorance of the proper biological terms.)

My definitions of "adventitious" vs "needle" buds are commonly used by us non-scientists to describe the different buds that JBP have.

Just as the word "decandling" is perhaps a misnomer, the word "adventitious" may be incorrect scientifically, but it is the way laymen bonsai people describe the buds that lay at the base of candles on JBP. And differentiate from those that lie between pairs of needles.

I don't know who coined the terms "adventitious", "needle buds" or "decandling". No matter. The important thing is to convey the concept.

I have managed to develop JBP ramification and short foliage successfully for many years without knowing the terms "meristem, orthrotopic, coppice, periderm", etc.

When I describe the process to my students, I try to convey the concept. In as simple of terms as possible. The scientific terms may be accurate, but it's just "too much information" for the non-scientist.

Here is evidence that the non-scientist can refine JBP bonsai with complete ignorance of the proper scientific terms:

View attachment 127361

Instead of writing about how great you've done not understanding those terms you could have just learned those terms. I have not said you needed these terms to understand the process, but when you use a term like adventitious and don't know what it means people tend to not trust your knowledge. In your argument it was possible to avoid using it at all. We'll learn you yet, Adair!

 

[Vance Wood]

Instead of writing about how great you've done not understanding those terms you could have just learned those terms. I have not said you needed these terms to understand the process, but when you use a term like adventitious and don't know what it means people tend to not trust your knowledge. In your argument it was possible to avoid using it at all. We'll learn you yet, Adair!

This of course brings up another problem. Consistency of terminology.

 

[Adair M]

Anthony,

I went out a took a couple closer up pictures of my tree. It, by the way is 20 inches tall from the top of the rim to the top of the tallest needle. The needles are all one inch long. Everywhere. (At the National Show in September, they were 3/4 inch.). The nebari at the soil line is 8 inches across.



It's rather dense. What I am attempting to show is the foliage doesn't just appear around the perimeter, there is foliage closer in to the trunk.

Here is a picture taken from underneath, looking up:



And another:



What I'm trying to show with these underneath pictures is there is foliage and branching close to the trunk.

The foliage was all developed using the "one day" decandling technique over the past 4 years. All the candles (shoots) were removed in one sitting each year. Up top stubs were left on about 1/2 inch long. In the middle section, stubs were kept 1/4 inch. And the lower section, no stub at all, but I was careful to leave the bud tissue intact.

Weak interior buds I did not decandle the first couple years. By years 3 and 4, they had developed enough strength to decandle. They produced long needles during this time. When I showed this tree at BIB in 2012, there were maybe a dozen shoots that had long (3 inch) needles. The morning of the first day of the show, I sheared those dozen shoots, cutting their needles to be the same length as the others. Doing it the morning of the show meant their tips would still be green, and no one would notice. Two weeks later, their tips turned brown.

When I pulled needles, each fall, I pulled more from the apex area, and fewer in the lower sections of the tree to maintain balance. This actually resulted in some back budding on old wood where old adventitious buds (not needle buds) were stimulated to grow. These I had to leave alone for a couple years until they became strong enough to decandle. When I took the tree to the Nationals, there was one shoot up in the apex where I had to cut the needles to shorten them.

In developing this tree, I have used what I call "adventitious" buds. I can't remember the tree ever producing any needle buds. It did produce some back budding as described earlier.

 

[Solange]

Maybe the buds are preventitious, haha! I admit I don't know it all and could use some refreshing.

 

[namnhi]

Maybe the buds are preventitious, haha! I admit I don't know it all and could use some refreshing.

I bet you are on Adair's ignore list.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

thank you very much for taking all this time, writing and images.

As you noted we have to evolve new techniques. unfortunately Hawaii is cooler than we are -

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/26/ff/df/26ffdf7848b4b7e3909920b665b3ad35.jpg


Note - 60 to 65 deg.F --------------- we are 70 to 66 deg.F and the 66 is for 5 or so times per year ------- 68 is more of our lowest low.

So we have to keep self experimenting.

Our J.B.pines are not showing an signs of growing presently and normally will not grow until after February.

Maybe, just maybe this guy's technique might work for us ????
[ though his work is untidy in appearance ]

What is encouraging is our trees are lush and healthy, just to figure out how we got the needle reduction.

Not to fuss we also get your type of branching as well, but our largest trees are only 15 to 18 inches tall------ getting older and weight factor.
Maybe one will be allowed to 30 inches tall or wide.

Enjoying the discussion.
Thanks to all.
Happy New Christmas.
Anthony

*** Ignore list - Anthony Style ----------- neither read or respond ----------- I don't need a machine ---- it's silly.*******

 

[Anthony]

From Youtube -

"Description
The Eastern Leaf Channel is dedicated to zen gardening. We share tips and techniques on how to care for your bonsai as well as training techniques. Bonsai videos hosted by bonsai artist: Jason Chan. We also share tips on creating terrariums and other fun garden related projects. Hosted by Juli.

About Jason Chan: @jasonmarkchan
Jason has been doing bonsai for over 10 years. He is the founder of Eastern Leaf. He is also a founding member of Bonsai Jidai, Southern California's premier school of bonsai. He serves on the board of the Golden State Bonsai Federation as a district trustee and is also the Editor for the official magazine of the Golden State Bonsai Federation.

Jason holds basic beginner classes at the Eastern Leaf nursery for new enthusiasts. For more information, please call us at 1-888-684-8377."

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyone want to talk to him ?
I can use Vonage after the holidays, local Internet Lines over loaded by the Kiddies presently.
Merry New Year
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

I bet you are on Adair's ignore list.

No, and neither are you!

 

[namnhi]

No, and neither are you!

I like you! My understanding about the different between adventious buds and needle buds is exactly like you.

 

[Adair M]

You didn't coin the terms, but you have been very adamant in their use around here. So let's clear it up with a simple botanical discussion. It's not that difficult, and if you're teaching, it wouldn't hurt to understand a few basic terms:

Bud names by location:
Apical: top terminal bud
Terminal: bud at the end of branch
Axillary/lateral: bud at leaf axils
Adventitious: buds anywhere else, and can include former axillary buds.

Bud names by status:
Accessory: next to the terminal buds (The "whorl" of pine buds. One terminal bud surrounded by accessory buds)
Resting: formed last year to grow this year
Latent/dormant: resting for more than a year (the rings around Japanese Maple have these)
Pseudoterminal: one which takes over when the terminal is removed

Needle buds, as you specifically use the term, are in fact axillary buds; which could be adventitious, if the needles surrounding the bud are gone. Calling them "axillary needle buds" would not be incorrect.

Adventitious buds, as you use the term, are actually resting/accessory buds, and even axillary buds. It is less likely they are actually adventitious buds, because, by definition, adventitious buds are not terminal or axillary. My understanding is that summer "decandling" activates "resting/accessory buds", and with any luck, some "axillary buds".

Brian,

What you are proposing is yet another list of terms. Your terms are just as arbitrary as mine, and the scientific terms Solange used are, too.

I use the terms I use because those are the terms Boon uses. Everyone who studies with him uses his terms, and we all understand each other. Mind you, English is not Boon's native language, so we have all had to learn "Boon speak"! Lol!

But again, the words are not the goal of this discussion. It's the concept of where to cut, and what the effect is.

Mike Frary and I had a discussion about the word "decandling", as he insisted that what was being cut was not a candle, but rather a shoot. I conceded that he was technically correct, but most people in bonsai call the process "decandling" or "candle cutting".

Boon was taught JBP technique by the grandson of the man who discovered "decandling". And the terms he uses convey what needs to be done to get good effects. Could other terms be used instead? Certainly. I will use the terms I am most comfortable using, I'm afraid that if I try to deviate depending upon my audience, I may indeed mis-speak.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

I believe the term is -Jargon

noun

1. special words or expressions used by a profession or group that are difficult for others to understand.

__________________________________________________

So what we do is try to re-relate the words to trees in general ---------- needles become leaves and candles become shoots.

This is to de-mystify, the conifer terms and allows the brains to train them like normal trees, since they grow like
normal trees down here.

On-line we use the accepted terms, candles or needles.

By the way Sifu, when we grow a J.B.pine in a Bonsai type container, the tree loses interest in growing long candles
and therefore has short extensions.
So for us one might as well, freeze dry it, as it remains lush, and time slows to a halt.

If needles are removed, they simply replaced.
However adventitous buds will pop from bare wood all of the time.
Must be our intense sunlight.

By the way we take notes and enjoy the learning experience.
Good Xmas Year,
Anthony

 

[M. Frary]

Mike Frary

Mention the Devil and up he pops.
I got no horse in this race so I'm just reading along.

 

[abqjoe]

Joe,

Bonsai has its own set of terminology. The origins of these terms are due to efforts to translate from Japanese to English by persons who may or may not have knowledge of bonsai.

I'm starting to get that. Maybe an effort on the part of this generation needs to be made to correct the incorrect verbiage within this hobby in hopes of creating more accuracy for future Bonsai enthusiasts, like myself. BTW, I love your tree!

 

[Solange]

Brian,

What you are proposing is yet another list of terms. Your terms are just as arbitrary as mine, and the scientific terms Solange used are, too.

I use the terms I use because those are the terms Boon uses. Everyone who studies with him uses his terms, and we all understand each other. Mind you, English is not Boon's native language, so we have all had to learn "Boon speak"! Lol!

But again, the words are not the goal of this discussion. It's the concept of where to cut, and what the effect is.

Mike Frary and I had a discussion about the word "decandling", as he insisted that what was being cut was not a candle, but rather a shoot. I conceded that he was technically correct, but most people in bonsai call the process "decandling" or "candle cutting".

Boon was taught JBP technique by the grandson of the man who discovered "decandling". And the terms he uses convey what needs to be done to get good effects. Could other terms be used instead? Certainly. I will use the terms I am most comfortable using, I'm afraid that if I try to deviate depending upon my audience, I may indeed mis-speak.

What is the deal with the willful ignorance and defense of it? I understand some terms are used colloquially, but you can't deny that significant problems can arise when we don't understand what the other is talking about or referring to. I also don't understand the use of Boon as a scapegoat, and I doubt he is as willfully ignorant as you are attempting to be. If we call a ficus a pine because all our buddies do it, it doesn't make it correct, it makes us look like idiots. If we call a black pine a sylvestrus, even though we have heard that it isn't that makes us willful idiots, and potentially sets up damaging practices. If we call bonsai bonzai we are being ignorant assholes. If someone cuts what is actually a candle, and not yet a shoot because they misunderstand, there is a problem. Brian's terms are also scientific terms, and adventitious is a scientific term. These terms are not arbitrary but when you arbitrarily apply them they might as well be, and it collectively makes us look like fools for continuing that kind of practice. Try walking into a automotive shop and ask them about a problem with your drive chain - I doubt they will know you are talking about your keychain! My grandpappy's second cousins grandpappy called it a doohingy since before you were kneehigh to a weedhopper so dagonnut wees calls it a doohingy...

 

[0soyoung]

Does pruning part of a hardened shoot create a shorter internode length?

The terminal bud on pines typically has several lateral buds that make the characteristic whorl of branches. These are natural nodes and the stem between them is the internode. In the future, buds are more likely to be released at a node than anywhere along the internode stem.

However, if the stem has needles, it is even more likely to release axillary/fascicular buds. Does this just make for a sharp change in the trajectory of a branch that will still be unlikely to bud in the future, or does this release of fascicular bud produce a node that will be a most likely location for future back-budding? In other words, is partial shoot pruning a means of (or technique for) reducing internode length?

 

[abqjoe]

What is the deal with the willful ignorance and defense of it? I understand some terms are used colloquially, but you can't deny that significant problems can arise when we don't understand what the other is talking about or referring to. I also don't understand the use of Boon as a scapegoat, and I doubt he is as willfully ignorant as you are attempting to be. If we call a ficus a pine because all our buddies do it, it doesn't make it correct, it makes us look like idiots. If we call a black pine a sylvestrus, even though we have heard that it isn't that makes us willful idiots, and potentially sets up damaging practices. If we call bonsai bonzai we are being ignorant assholes. If someone cuts what is actually a candle, and not yet a shoot because they misunderstand, there is a problem. Brian's terms are also scientific terms, and adventitious is a scientific term. These terms are not arbitrary but when you arbitrarily apply them they might as well be, and it collectively makes us look like fools for continuing that kind of practice. Try walking into a automotive shop and ask them about a problem with your drive chain - I doubt they will know you are talking about your keychain! My grandpappy's second cousins grandpappy called it a doohingy since before you were kneehigh to a weedhopper so dagonnut wees calls it a doohingy...

"doohingy", yet another awesome word picked up from BonsaiNut that I will use in the future

 

[Adair M]

Oso, yes, you can merely shorten candles (or shoots) to reduce internode length. It does not shorten needles. The needle shortening effect is largely the result of having a shorter growing season remaining after the candle cutting.

By the way, Solange, the timing of the candle. Cutting is dependent on your growing season. I live in the South. We have a long growing season. Those who live farther North (or live in cooler climates), have shorter growing seasons. But in the end, we both want to have the tree have healthy foliage by the end of the growing season. So those who live farther North should cut the candles (shoots) earlier than those of us in the South. In fact, it may very well be that this needs to be done before needles have expressed themselves! So in that case, the candles would still be candles and not have transformed into "shoots". In fact, John Naka's drawings of candle cutting look more like "candles" than "shoots". If I were to cut mine in my climate when the spring candles looked like that, the new candles and needles would grow to full size!

@Anthony: you noted a difference in your temperatures vs Hawaii's. I think that is of little concern. If they cut candles on a certain date, merely add a few weeks to their date and do it then.

As an example, at Boon's in California, his temperatures are much cooler than mine. To get decent needles on JBP, we have to decandle from mid-May until early June in order for the summer candles and needles to develop properly.

Where I live, I wait to decandle until July. Traditionally, I decandle on July 4. Last summer was unusually hot, so my summer growth was much stronger than usual! I should have waited until the first of August!

Oso,

I have found that new candles (shoots) resulting from needle buds look different than those that grow from the base of the spring candles (what I call adventitious buds). They're coarser and don't make pretty tufts of needles the way the adventitious buds do. Therefore I choose to work with adventitious buds when refining JBP.

Solange, I really don't care if you think I'm an idiot. I can produce pretty nice JBP. I seriously doubt if I change my words it's going to make any difference.

Colin Lewis has a video where he described wiring two branches with one wire. He calls it "the slingshot technique". Boon has a handout with a drawing of the same technique. It is the third picture on the page. Labeled "Figure 3".

All Boon students call the technique "Figure 3". All of Colin's students call it "slingshot". So what? Is one right and the other wrong? No. All that matters is the concept is communicated.

 

[Adair M]

"doohingy", yet another awesome word picked up from BonsaiNut that I will use in the future

Don't forget about:

Doohickey
Thingamabob
Doololly
Thingamajig

I believe the correct scientific term for all these is "widget".

 

[coh]

Adventitious buds, as you use the term, are actually resting/accessory buds, and even axillary buds. It is less likely they are actually adventitious buds, because, by definition, adventitious buds are not terminal or axillary. My understanding is that summer "decandling" activates "resting/accessory buds", and with any luck, some "axillary buds".

Right, this makes sense to me. Think of a strong JBP in the ground or a grow pot/box that has not received any candle cutting, balancing, root pruning, etc. It's going to produce numerous buds and shoots at each growing tip - a main dominant terminal bud and 4-6 (or more?) secondary buds that grow into shoots, producing the "whorl" growth pattern. But in our bonsai, we have restricted the growth through various means, so typically our new growth (especially if it was the result of candle cutting last season) produces a terminal bud and maybe 1 or 2 other buds at each shoot. But, I would assume (dangerous, perhaps) that there are other latent buds in the same area. When you cut off the extending candles in the summer, it is those buds that are activated producing the smaller growth we desire, clustered at the end of the previous seasons shoot.

The video in question is not of sufficient quality to really see what he is cutting (at least on my monitor). It looks like his "pressing" technique is just a way to get as close to the base of the current shoot as possible - looks like he is pressing the scissors against the previous years needles. If so, he is most likely not cutting off the area of buds (that Adair calls adventitious). However, in those cases where he is cutting off 2 or more shoots at once, he is removing part of the previous years shoot - the part where the buds we want are located. In that case, any new growth would have to come from "needle buds" or presumably from older terminal buds that are further back along the branch, regardless of what they are called.

At least, that's how it appears to me!

Chris