Itoigawa and Kiyozuru

[Neli]

It is important never to remove too much foliage on junipers. Apart from the fact that you can get juvenile foliage which takes long time to revert to mature, you weaken the tree.
Junipers depend on their foliage pines on their roots.

 

[Poink88]

It is important never to remove too much foliage on junipers. Apart from the fact that you can get juvenile foliage which takes long time to revert to mature, you weaken the tree.
Junipers depend on their foliage pines on their roots.

Thanks Neli. That is exactly what I knew for all grafting and thought specially for juniper but watch around 8:38 of the 2nd video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsic7jfYYig

 

[Neli]

I watched it...The reason he reduces the foliaged is to allocate more resources to the graft.

 

[Poink88]

I watched it...The reason he reduces the foliaged is to allocate more resources to the graft.

But if the resources are stored in the foliage how does that impact the plant in general? I personally think it is more about auxin flow change than anything else.

BTW, What are the chances he is mistaken? I do not want to rule out anything.

 

[Neli]

I think it is about sap allocation. Foliage generate the resources...but in this case part of the tree is reduced so that the sap allocated to it does not by pass the graft, by too much demand from the foliage.

 

[Poink88]

Neli,

I think the discussion merit it's own thread so I started one here.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?14327-More-juniper-grafting-question&p=189720#post189720

Thank you.

 

[Poink88]

I was not content with the super fine soil these trees are in. It look and feel like the fines you produce when sifting sand and turface through window screen . So I decided to bare root both, washed with hose, and planted them in colanders. The very few live roots are flimsy and are all near & circled the pot perimeter.

The following month, most of the inner foliage turned yellow and got me alarmed. BUT after cleaning them off...the rest took off and happy to report that both are very healthy looking & tips are extending now. My gamble paid off and hope I can start training the top next year.

 

[october]

I was not content with the super fine soil these trees are in. It look and feel like the fines you produce when sifting sand and turface through window screen . So I decided to bare root both, washed with hose, and planted them in colanders. The very few live roots are flimsy and are all near & circled the pot perimeter.

The following month, most of the inner foliage turned yellow and got me alarmed. BUT after cleaning them off...the rest took off and happy to report that both are very healthy looking & tips are extending now. My gamble paid off and hope I can start training the top next year.

That's great that they survived. It is also good that you realized you took a gamble with bare rooting. If at all possible, always avoid bare rooting any conifer.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

Thanks Rob.

FYI, I was originally going to do partial but as I expose the 1/3 pie and cannot find any feeder roots other than those at the perimeter, I thought I basically bare rooted the tree anyway so I washed all the soil off. Sure enough those are all the live roots and are only connected to even fewer main roots.

Have a plan but adapt & adjust if need be. That's what I do.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Could you provide a picture of the foliage? I'd like to see how a juniper might look from stress resulting from bare rooting; I'd like to see the pattern of yellowing of the inner foliage.

 

[Poink88]

Could you provide a picture of the foliage? I'd like to see how a juniper might look from stress resulting from bare rooting; I'd like to see the pattern of yellowing of the inner foliage.

If you are looking for yellow leaves...they are all gone (cleaned) and I did not take any pictures. If you want pics of the trees now, those I can take and post later.

It was alarming to see too many from inside but after they are gone...the tree actually looked better since you can see inside and see the branches a bit more. However, this is probably only true because these trees have very dense foliage to begin with.

 

[fore]

Thats great that they survived. It is also good that you realized you took a gamble with bare rooting. If at all possible, always avoid bare rooting any conifer.

Rob

Now there's some truth Rob! I am loosing I think, my crappiest/first Ponderosa that I was too aggressive removing the duff. This was it's 3rd repot and I thought I could finally get rid of the rest of the duff...way wrong! Though I was aggressive, though not quite as much, to another PP and several other junipers with NO problems at all...so this is one area I need to learn more as I work with more yamadori. I'll be hitting up Ryan in July about this.

So Dario, I think you got very lucky!

 

[Poink88]

So Dario, I think you got very lucky!

I agree but I think a little understanding of hort and knowing what to do during and after helped a bit too.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I've bare rooted a juniper once. It continues to grow well at the tips, but some of the inner foliage would turn yellow and drop.

 

[goosetown]

I have four trees that I bought from Gary, who is just an absolute prince of a guy. I love learning from him. Unfortunately, I lost two of them this year to spider mites while I was on vacation. It was absolutely crushing because they were beautiful trees and I was really happy with the work I'd done.

In any event, they were all Itoigawas, and though I didn't bare-root any of them when repotting, they all threw off some yellowed growth when the roots were trimmed a bit. They all came back nice and strong, however, and I was able to start working on them the next season. I initially worried that I had done a little too much work on them, but having read your posts here I'm beginning to think it might just be an inherent characteristic of the way Gary grafts/cultivates his trees.

I think you're in great shape. Gary just gives you amazing structure to work with. Excited to see the progression of these two in the coming years.

 

[Beng]

All Shimpakus, and RMJ's loose their inner foliage which turns yellow this time of year it's a natural progression for it to turn yellow. I haven't seen the yellowing as much on chinese junipers or San hose. And I don't own any californias despite living in california so I can't speak to them.

I think there are some misunderstandings I can clear up about junipers so hopefully this weekend i'll post a thread on junipers on Bnut. Great to hear they're doing good!

 

[october]

Repotting can be tedious sometimes. As Dario basically said, you need to assess/adapt what is in front of you. First, the practice of removing half the root ball of a collected tree or any tree on the first repot. That is fine in theory. However, what if the root ball is a cemented disaster. Are you going to leave one side all cemeted together. I never do. I still work that side a little bit and open it up. The main thing you are trying to accomplish is a healthy root system. This is accomplished by many things. However, drainage might be the most important. If the side of the root ball that you left does not drain, you will be in for some problems. So as long as both sides drain and you did not leave any rotted roots, you should be ok.

As far as the pie thing, that is for a more established root ball or a root ball that has had a moderate amount of training. If a root ball has been trained, it should be a solid mass of mostly fibrous roots. So cutting off sections will still leave a good amount of roots. Trees survive mostly on these fine feed roots. However, if you do this method on an untrained root ball, there might be some big roots in there. Remove too many large roots that just so happen to have a lot of feeder roots, could cause problems.

For me, I never rush root pruning. No matter how bad it is, I always use the chop stick method and keep stopping and inspecting. Then I observe as I cut. Also, if it can be avoided, it is best to not use a saw. The saw is the absolute last resort. A little patience and a chop stick will always be a good method.

Rob