Is cheap fall nursery stock a good idea?

[amatbrewer]

It may be a little off the track from OP’s original question but while I will not disagree with the excellent commentary and advice given here, I would like mention one positive aspect (at least for me) of cheap material that I am not sure gets touched on.
I find I am willing to take risks (real or perceived) with cheap material that I would not with my more valuable plants. As such I find this cheap material invaluable in learning new skills and practicing techniques. And to my surprise a few actually have resulted in plants with some potential. E.g. the free lilac that I almost killed while experimenting, but what survived looks like it may be a nice mame in a few years.
And as for the failures that do survive? Well they make nice gifts for those who don't know any better: "What is that? You like that one over there? I have had it for a few years now, but consider it my gift to you. You are welcome." ;-P

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I like cheap nursery material for exactly the reason @amatbrewer said, I can hone my horticultural skills on stock that if I kill it doesn't break the bank. I have a set up that allows me to keep 50+ sticks in pots without a problem. I do cycle in and cycle out different things, as my tastes change and skills evolve.

The more developed a bonsai tree becomes the more time they demand. My best azalea and best hinoki require 2 or 3 sessions of 4 or more hours at a time to prune, wire and otherwise groom, add another 2 or 3 hours for a careful repot.

Most of my sticks in pots require just minutes for watering and fertilizing, and when it comes time to evaluate and prune - maybe 5 minutes to cut the one or two branches that need cutting. Big difference. I put less time into 50 sticks in pots than in 2 advanced azaleas.

So as your collection evolves, time demands will change. If we have only so much time to spend doing bonsai, as your collection evolves to more developed trees, you will be able to handle fewer and fewer trees. 10 well developed trees will keep you as busy as 50 pots of nursery stock in early development.

 

[Scooter9166 - 5a]

Here's an unexpected reason to buy nursery stock. I have a friend who is showing interest in starting in bonsai. I have an abundance of nursery stock that I picked up very cheap. I have no qualms giving some of it to him, and he can find out if he has the patience to make an investment of his own.

 

[Cajunrider]

It may be a little off the track from OP’s original question but while I will not disagree with the excellent commentary and advice given here, I would like mention one positive aspect (at least for me) of cheap material that I am not sure gets touched on.
I find I am willing to take risks (real or perceived) with cheap material that I would not with my more valuable plants. As such I find this cheap material invaluable in learning new skills and practicing techniques. And to my surprise a few actually have resulted in plants with some potential. E.g. the free lilac that I almost killed while experimenting, but what survived looks like it may be a nice mame in a few years.
And as for the failures that do survive? Well they make nice gifts for those who don't know any better: "What is that? You like that one over there? I have had it for a few years now, but consider it my gift to you. You are welcome." ;-P

For me, I'm planning to put the failures that do survive into the ground. I got acres and acres of land to plant anything I want. Per chance the passage of time will turn failures of today into fantastic Yamadori in the future. If not, at least I will have a yard full of conversation starters.

 

[amatbrewer]

Here's an unexpected reason to buy nursery stock. I have a friend who is showing interest in starting in bonsai. I have an abundance of nursery stock that I picked up very cheap. I have no qualms giving some of it to him, and he can find out if he has the patience to make an investment of his own.

Good point. My son and his girlfriend started showing interest, so I gave them their pick my 'practice' material to do with as they please. It gave them something to work with (at no cost to them) and cleared out some shelf space for me to get new material (much to my wife's dismay).

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Cheap nursery stock that is grafted is usually a bad investment. Usually, but not always. With experience you can learn what a ''good graft'' looks like. But it is not something that can be explained in one post over the internet.

Cheap nursery stock that is not grafted is an excellent investment. Trees like Hinoki, Thuja, Junipers, Potentilla, Cotoneaster, Pyracantha, Barberry, hollies, certain mugo cultivars, Amelanchier and others propagated by cuttings or seeds. These are all great. Some Japanese maples like Bloodgood and Emperor II, and a few others are now being produced from tissue culture instead of grafting, meaning no grafting scars.

Spruces, pines, hornbeams, and other trees with no cultivar names were most likely seed propagated rather than grafted. These are also good when cheap.

 

[Kendo]

Having question for American style bonsai. Hai Why he take any tree he can get?

 

[Music4cash]

Pepper plants are pretty nice, they can be defoliated, trimmed, they branch, and they're cheap. They can also be kept indoors during winter and restarted in spring. Watch out for fungal issues though.
Cannabis is, in a sense, even better. But there's local laws in place that I don't know about. So don't do that unless you're absolutely sure you're allowed to. They air layer, they ground layer, they branch, they reduce in size, they take wiring very well but they don't backbud.
Rosemary is becoming popular as a bonsai/funsai species, they usually do pretty well and they can teach you about deadwood and how to handle root-sensitive plants.
Sage can be used as well, for learning about plants, but they take time to form wood (if they do it at all). Not a bad learning subject, but I don't know of any good uses of the stuff. I never use it in the kitchen, so where the others still have some value, sage has none.
Laurel is cheap, and it backbuds very easy. It's not very responsive to pruning, so getting them to do something you want is quite the challenge. If you fail, you can make good stew.

If you want to learn fast, and cheap, take a look at some of those. Herbs that form wood (other than the ones above) are great subjects for getting to know the basics.

Wow I googled cannabis bonsai, and they can be really beautiful...Unfortunately here in Virginia it probably isn't the best idea...But I think I will get some thyme or rosemary and give them a shot. They are readily available at local hardware stores and I'm thinking that I can grow them indoors which will give me something to play with this winter. Thanks very much for the advice.

 

[Music4cash]

Having question for American style bonsai. Hai Why he take any tree he can get?

I'm not taking just any tree I can get. The problem is that I don't understand the advantages and disadvantages of particular species, and I haven't yet developed the ability to see the long term potential in a tree...So I'm trying to learn how to be more discerning.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Having question for American style bonsai. Hai Why he take any tree he can get?

Question for you Kendo; why do you think he takes any tree he can get? And how does that relate to american style?

 

[Kendo]

I'm not taking just any tree I can get. The problem is that I don't understand the advantages and disadvantages of particular species, and I haven't yet developed the ability to see the long term potential in a tree...So I'm trying to learn how to be more discerning.

If new student Bonsai then simplicity is best friend. Like tree removing the unnecessary from the mind is critical judgment Hai. One concideration when slection process is the time. SOme tree take more time in care. This difference you must think upon for value. Hai

Thank you, thank you for discussion. Thank you.

 

[Kendo]

Question for you Kendo; why do you think he takes any tree he can get? And how does that relate to american style?

I am looking at many American style Bonsai. Many I see are not so good because the vision of owning ten hand tree is over critical thinking of mind. This I see much in American style. Hai I see make cutting, but he not thinking critical about future form of cutting. This adds confusion to bonsai.

Thank you for discussion American style bonsai. Thank you.

 

[Kendo]

Wow I googled cannabis bonsai, and they can be really beautiful...Unfortunately here in Virginia it probably isn't the best idea...But I think I will get some thyme or rosemary and give them a shot. They are readily available at local hardware stores and I'm thinking that I can grow them indoors which will give me something to play with this winter. Thanks very much for the advice.

I looking Google for the Cannabis tree bonsai. Hai this one is the smoking tree for pleasure and medicine. Hai I never see before. Thank you for commenting new American Style Bonsai Cannabis. Hai Are you smoking for the medicine or just for bonsai? Hai

Bonsai start by the transportation of medicine tree and herb. Hai This is true to traditional form. Thank you for posting. Thank you.

 

[Cajunrider]

Having question for American style bonsai. Hai Why he take any tree he can get?

1. Us Americans are a bit of a rebel. We like to challenge the establishment. While this means we repeat some failures that can be avoided, we also gain the opportunities to invent something new. There is a reason why a lot of inventions come from America.
2. We have a little more resources at hand that allows us to experiment. For example, not many people in Japan or Asia have a lot of land to try things. In America, having a few acres to plant things and try them out is not uncommon. Take me for example, I take more trees than average bonsai student because whatever I don't like, I will plant them in my yard because I have a lot of room to do so.
3. Lack of exposure to bonsai. In Japan or Asia, children get exposed to bonsai when young so when they grow up, they know approximately what they want. For many Americans just getting into bonsai, we don't know what we want yet so we tend to get our hands on a few trees just to find out.

Those are my humble thoughts.

Cheers

 

[Nybonsai12]

My 2 cents. No, 99% of nursery stock is not worth the money, time and effort to learn bonsai. Most don't have good bases, or good root systems, most don't have interesting trunk lines or branches where you will need them. Some have graft scars or reverse taper. They haven't been trained for bonsai. You will spend years trying to correct problems. sure, you will learn some things along the way but if you want to speed up the process you should look to purchase material that was grown with bonsai in mind.

I used to love strolling through the garden centers and box stores when i first got into bonsai. As time has gone on, i've realized there is nothing worthwhile there.

 

[Music4cash]

I bought a tray of rosemary to play with over the winter, I also realized it's much cheaper to buy fresh rosemary at Lowe's than the grocery store...I think when we get near spring I'll go to a specialty bonsai nursery for something to work on with more potential. There's one not too far from me in Maryland

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks for all the great advice...it seems the general consensus is...box store trees are grafted, and they are a good deal if they have a nice trunk, but otherwise are more work than a yamadori or tree grown for bonsai

Perhaps another approach is worth considering. How about evaluating the potential of each tree realistically from the roots up regardless of the source. Grafted is less desireable in most cases. For example the same tree on its own roots is going to be more highly prized. How much improvement is required or work to be done on the roots? How long to thicken the trunk? Is there a suitable trunk line or does one need to develop movement or change of direction and taper.
Is it worth saving say $100 if it requires 10 years to develop or correct the problems present? Or as it usually turns out, is it worth saving $100 and spending $20 plus ten years effort to determine that one should start over again because the tree is not going anywhere?
As you can probably tell by the above i do not agree that one always needs to learn on a stick in the pot. Learning is more effective when one experiences success. Positive results are more likely with appropriate material. Something along the lines of each beginner not having to reinvent the wheel and make the same mistakes.
In the end each individual determines how valuable their time and resources are in respect to their desired outcomes. If one wants to get started and has limited resources then trees " on sale " take on a great deal of interest.
Just get the best bonsaiable material you can find and afford it will make a difference. The best investment would be learning to spot the key basic structures that are the most difficult to develop or correct before going shopping.

 

[amatbrewer]

I like the way this discussion is going and agree with most of what has been said, so I hope you will forgive me when I play devil’s advocate and use a few exaggerated terms just for effect.

Much of the discussion regarding shunning (yea, a strong word, but chosen more for dramatic affect than accuracy) nursery/big box material revolves around having a goal of developing it into a showable tree that will be the envy of all who gaze upon it (another obvious exaggeration). While my assertion, and I suspect that of others, is that inexpensive material CAN be a great learning tool if approached with realistic expectations.

For example while studding pottery (a very long time ago on an island far, far away) we started out using cheap clay and glazes, and only a few of us got to use more expensive material such as porcelain and expensive glazes after we demonstrated a level of proficiency. Could we have learned to throw porcelain faster and better if we started with it rather than that cheap clay? Sure, probably (I found the somewhat rubbery texture of porcelain difficult to get the hang of), but the cost of all the “failures” (drama. No piece of art is a failure if it is a success in the eyes of the artist) would have been prohibitive. To use an analogy closer to home, I see lots of pictures and videos of bonsai masters showing techniques on lesser quality material. Why not on the insanely expensive trees that they often have at hand? (obviously a rhetorical question) In fact there are a few great examples online of teachers demonstrating bonsai wiring technique using a fake branches?!?! If there was no point in practicing on lesser material, there ASSUREDLY is no point on doing it on hardware store dowels. [Yes I am being intentionally melodramatic...sue me]

I think you will find in most areas of learning, including art, there is a long tradition of using lesser materials for learning and demonstrating. Would you give someone studying auto body repair a 1966 Lamborghini to learn on? If so…then I would really love to learn auto body repair, when can I come over?

So yes, if your intent is a finished bonsai you can be proud of…I will completely agree, most nursery and big box material is probably a bad investment. And if you are anticipating it being the image that world uses as what bonsai should be…my advice is stick to purchasing discounted lottery tickets from sketchy guys on the corner, the odds are better.

However if one is looking for material to do Frankenstein like experiments (at least what even a basic air layer can seem to be like to a novice) that have very low probabilities of surviving let alone becoming something amazing that historians will someday write books about…using something inexpensive (like the plants in the yard of that neighbor you don’t like?) seems a reasonable option. (Just don’t get caught. It is really hard to explain why you are in someone’s yard in the middle of the night with a knife, plastic wrap and wire. Don't ask how I know.)

 

[shinmai]

I would suggest a middle-of-the-road compromise. Buying something with nothing to work with, simply because it’s cheap, is a fool’s errand. If it starts ugly, it’s probably going to stay ugly. That’s not to say you can’t learn a lot by keeping it healthy and working with it, but inevitably the day comes when it’s taking up space and effort and it’s still ugly. Tossing it into the trash isn’t exactly the same as drowning puppies, but it’s still a living thing.
The best outcome, in my opinion, is when you lift the lower branches and poke around in the dirt, and lo and behold, there’s something with a good base, thick and tapered trunk, AND it’s on the clearance pile. That’s how my wife ended up bringing home a ‘surprise’ of two black pussy willows in five gallon pots, with four inch bases, 1.5 inch trunks, and several years old with nice primary branching. Likewise the beautiful, rugged ninebark that I abruptly lost to borers last month.
It takes some self control to pass on the occasional cheapo, but there are definitely lots of possibilities out there.

 

[Vance Wood]

It is so difficult to teach someone without experience or basic knowledge how to pick possible materiel from a garbage pile. Sometimes the garbage pile is a good place to look but if you don't know what to look for it is waste of time and monery. True; cheap does not mean good but neither does it mean bad. One of my best trees was rejected by another bonsai grower years ago, and I acquired it for less than $20.