hemmy
Omono
Another good reference for using bark as a nursery mix.
Is anyone using pine bark in their bonsai soil ?
- Thread starter Ali Raza
- Start date
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I know that guy.....
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Last count had 7 bags of akadama in the shed. Don't use it anymore.....
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
I use pine bark in my mix. Lava rock, expanded clay and pine bark. It works for me.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,427
- Reaction score
- 23,606
- USDA Zone
- 5b
my mixes are anywhere from 10% bark to 75% bark. Most often about 33% bark and the rest a mix of pumice & red lava & whatever.
I usually get douglas fir bark sold as orchid bark. Here orchiata is quite expensive, but for certain orchids is really great.
I don't bother composting any of the bark. I also don't repot more often than once every 2 to once every 5 years. Actually, I only repot if something has outgrown their pot, or if the mix stopped draining. The above mix almost never stops draining well.
I usually get douglas fir bark sold as orchid bark. Here orchiata is quite expensive, but for certain orchids is really great.
I don't bother composting any of the bark. I also don't repot more often than once every 2 to once every 5 years. Actually, I only repot if something has outgrown their pot, or if the mix stopped draining. The above mix almost never stops draining well.
Tidal Bonsai
Omono
Bark can be an extremely effective growing medium, however it needs to be broken down. Raw bark just slows down the development of roots, and displaced water IMO. Look up mushroom compost and you will see what I am referring to.
Shima
Omono
I want to slow down root development. Especially on established bonsai.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Most species of Pines do not do well in these climate zones, it is too hot and humid for all that I am familiar with.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
It depends on what part of the nitrogen cycle you are in. Raw fresh bark is good for bonsai because it takes about two years before it starts to decompose and become compost. Composting bark is a nitrogen sponge and can actually rob the plant of beneficial nitrogen.
Actual compost can compact and lose water drainage and wetting ability, and the reason most use raw bark as a soil medium. If one wants to use compost make sure it is fully composted and not stealing nitrogen. Watch the friability of the soil by using an extra measure of coarse drainage material like pumice. Roots love fresh bark and will grow right into the water reservoir bark particle. You don't get that with compost.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
@Ali Raza ,
you can use J.B.pine [ sea shore in Japan ] and what is known
as the Caribbean pine [ see Cuba - Isle of pines ] and the
blend of Caribbean / Honduran pine.
These exist in Australia and I believe the East Indies.
The J.B.pine needles age faster in our no rain 6 month Dry Season.
Tips of needles burn red and go brown within a few months.
Now testing Huang pine and something that came from Brunei
as seed.
Our soil is a simple blend of 5 mm silica based gravel and aged
compost. Pot for growing is porous clay pots.
Later we use concrete pots.
Oldest from seed is now around 30 plus years. J.B.pine.
Gpod Day
Anthony
you can use J.B.pine [ sea shore in Japan ] and what is known
as the Caribbean pine [ see Cuba - Isle of pines ] and the
blend of Caribbean / Honduran pine.
These exist in Australia and I believe the East Indies.
The J.B.pine needles age faster in our no rain 6 month Dry Season.
Tips of needles burn red and go brown within a few months.
Now testing Huang pine and something that came from Brunei
as seed.
Our soil is a simple blend of 5 mm silica based gravel and aged
compost. Pot for growing is porous clay pots.
Later we use concrete pots.
Oldest from seed is now around 30 plus years. J.B.pine.
Gpod Day
Anthony
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
I mix it in with some of my flowering quince soil.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
There are a number of pinus sp that do well in sub-tropical climates. Anthony has already mentioned P. caribaea and P. elliottii which are planted for timber in Australia's northern areas and are among a number of declared weed species in Queensland. P. radiata and P. halapensis are also mentioned as environmental weeds, the latter seems to prefer drier regions but copes with the summer rain and humidity.
Brisbane (sub tropical) bonsai growers report that Japanese Black pine grows OK for them but I don't know if their 'OK' is anything like as well as it could grow in cooler areas.
Any of these species would be worth trying in new areas. I'm sure there are also others that would grow too.
R3x
Shohin
I thought the modern way of thought in bonsai was 100% inorganic substrates (aka Walter Pall's school) - you know - good oxygen access to roots, no risk of rotting or overwatering, much safer use of large amounts of fertiliser. That's what I do.
Ali Raza
Shohin
What about in zone 9b or 10 ? Long and hot summer will dry bark more quickly, demanding the watering more often. Any correlation with growing zone and amount of pine bark to be used in bonsai soil mix (only for pines) ?
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
@R3x ,
did a 30 years of our soil mix in use [ Tropics ] check, found only
the fne feeder roots and no decomposition of the inorganics.
No loss of any factors.
On our side it is the ball bearing principle [ O2 supply ] water
retentionn / fertiliser ] and microbes for root health [ compost ]
If you are using no teabags, the fermented oil seed meal will
supply compost as well as NPK.
As far as I recall, Mr. Pall's technique uses broken Leca and
dug up large trunked trees.
No need for ground growing/ trunk thickening /root training.
As roots die in the leca mix, compost is made, as well as insect etc.
poop.
6 of one , half a dozen of the other.
The real difference in Mr. Pall's work to Japanese work. Is how
the branches are placed.
Good Day
Anthony
did a 30 years of our soil mix in use [ Tropics ] check, found only
the fne feeder roots and no decomposition of the inorganics.
No loss of any factors.
On our side it is the ball bearing principle [ O2 supply ] water
retentionn / fertiliser ] and microbes for root health [ compost ]
If you are using no teabags, the fermented oil seed meal will
supply compost as well as NPK.
As far as I recall, Mr. Pall's technique uses broken Leca and
dug up large trunked trees.
No need for ground growing/ trunk thickening /root training.
As roots die in the leca mix, compost is made, as well as insect etc.
poop.
6 of one , half a dozen of the other.
The real difference in Mr. Pall's work to Japanese work. Is how
the branches are placed.
Good Day
Anthony
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The fact that we cannot agree on this should show you the truth: We don't know what we are talking about most of the time on this subject. Too many claim this and too many claim that and both are contrary to each other, and both cannot be right. I have posted what works for me, Walter has posted what works for him, and Ryan has posted what he teaches and believes and works for him as well. I have evidence, Walter has evidence and Ryan has evidence in the trees we present and show. Point being what ever works for you for the way you grow stuff is the right thing to use. There is no capitol offense for not following the use of organics according to your favorite bonsai guru. You will not go to hell if you use Pine bark, or do not use Akadama. To hear some of the proponents of soil composition both of the preceding elements can produce horrendous results if not followed according to their formula.
Lazylightningny
Masterpiece
I purchase a lot of nursery trees for future bonsai. I sift the bark from the nursery soil and add it to lava and pumice in equal parts. I don't know if it's composted or not, but it's been in the pot for years.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,427
- Reaction score
- 23,606
- USDA Zone
- 5b
That would be considered composted bark. I re-use bark from repotting orchids. ''True composting'' happens at an elevated temperature in a compost pile, usually left as a pile until it stops generating large amounts of heat. In North America, a few months to a year. BUT similar chemical changes happen more slowly at room temperatures (ambient temps outdoors) with bark being used in a pot. Bacteria, fungi, yeasts, and other organisms do the same degrading of the bark that a compost pile would do in a relatively short time. The wood sugars are degraded to simpler compounds, the cellulose is partially decomposed. The hemicellulose and various lignins that give rigidity to wood and bark are broken down into simpler ''wood sugars'' like xylitol, xylose, arabinose and other 5 carbon sugars and phenolics. Basically the easy to digest portions of wood and bark are degraded, leaving the slower to decompose parts in the bark & wood. The openings created by the decomposition where materials were removed by decomposition make the bark chips more like miniature sponge chips. And the remaining organics are great food for mycorrhiza. Eventually bark crumbles into smaller and smaller pieces.
Fir bark can decompose in a pot from fresh to crumbles of dust in about 7 to 8 years in the Chicago area, quicker if you fertilize more often, which encourages certain decomposition organisms (I don't know just which ones). Radiata pine bark will last a good 10 to 15 years before it is reduced to powder. For epiphytic orchids, in fir bark repotting is usually at 2 years, for radiata repotting is usually at or before 5 years. This time is plenty to begin make the water holding and porosity of more ideal as a potting mix for trees.
I often use fresh bark, of both douglas fir (fir bark) and radiata bark, fresh as is in my bonsai mix. I try not to repot my trees very often, especially pines and junipers I do try to avoid repotting more than once every 5 to 10 years if I can get away with it. Often I can't, but I try to leave my tree roots alone as long as I can. The use of fresh bark buys me more time, but it does mean that the mix that might have been somewhat ''dry'' will begin to hold much more water the second and third years. But if you adjust watering schedules as needed. Water your trees when they need it, not when you want to. Then these changes do not pose a problem.
The chemistry of wood and bark decomposition does lend itself to keeping a potting mix more acidic. Bark in various stages of decomposition have a fairly high CEC, cation exchange capacity, which does change as different components of bark are consumed by microbes.
SO what was the question? Yes, bark that is used, can be considered ''composted''.
Caveat - traditional compost pile composting generates heat, bark composted by that method is essentially pasteurized in the process, it is not sterile, but a large range of organisms are killed by the process. Most of the catastrophic fungal pathogens are killed by high temperature composting.
However, if you are conscious of potential disease issues, used bark from pots with healthy trees are not a problem. Just dispose of bark from trees that died of diseases like anthracnose and other fungal or bacterial catastrophes .
I usually don't worry, as healthy soil microbes will inhibit most fungal and bacterial diseases.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,427
- Reaction score
- 23,606
- USDA Zone
- 5b
@Ali Raza - Exactly as Vance posted above - there is no one answer. It goes without question that a long hot summer WILL require more frequent watering of trees. If you an I had trees the same size pot in the same mix, it is absolutely true you would have to water more often than I would. The warmest day where I live so far for 2019 has been 26 C. and it is middle of June already.
So depending on how much water your other components of your potting mix hold, adding bark that has had some composting time will add more water storage capacity.
Everyone tailors their own potting mix to materials available and local climate and local water chemistry for their location.
It is very confused subject, as Vance says because frankly soil science is not studied by bonsai hobbyists. There are more interesting things to read than soil chemistry texts. And a tree in a bonsai pot is a very artificial system. There is no easy reference to tell one what to do.
Similar threads
