Intelligent conversation of the Literati

[Smoke]

Smoke, what you created yesterday would fit into Walter Palls "fairy tale" category, IMHO... because of the "feeling" I get looking at it. Without being offensive, I've seen nothing in nature (in my life) that tells me that it is realistic... for a number of reasons.

You have a lot more reading to do. Bonsai is not only a natural hobby. It is also about aesthetics, being well manicured, every needle on a pine the same length, over exaggerated nebari, thin wispy trunks and overly sumo trunks. To have such a narrow minded view of something so extraordinary as bonsai must be difficult to comprehend? To truly enjoy bonsai one must throw out everything you know about nature, or use everything about nature, we are all free to choose the path. It is there for you to enjoy how ever one sees fit. To look down on something just because it is not found in nature is mind boggling to me.

Here is something in nature, doesn't mean I want to do it to a bonsai! Lightning does some weird shit!

 

[johng]

A few trees that really fit the form.
View attachment 127118 View attachment 127119 View attachment 127120

Here is a potential observation based on the first photos posted and my perceptions.
I think all the trees posted by prior to the post I've quoted above are of American origins...I suspect the trees in this post are of Japanese origins....Smoke do you know?? Anyone else notice the difference?

Personally, I really don't think most folks outside of Japan and China have a real appreciation for the cultural history that plays into the Literati style....To me that is why there is such a vast difference in the photos Smoke posted.

Folks outside of those Asian cultures are trying to copy a style(a generalization) while those of the culture have a much more developed appreciation and level of experience that equates to better trees in the style...

As a side note....to me, literati is really the only style where something less than the appearance of peak conditioning is the goal...I think this is why good examples evoke very different emotions when compared to the other styles of bonsai.

The need of humans to classify and judge things never ceases to amaze me...myself with included.

 

[Random User]

"To look down on something"

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't look down on what other ppl do... I think that I've been quite clear in the past that I don't ever intend of demeaning anyone or making disparaging remarks about what others do. And, you are quite correct that nature does some wild designing...

The only reason that I posted anything here was because you opened it for discussion... had I have known that it would cause you anything other than mild curiosity, I would never have posted anything at all.

 

[wireme]

Why?

Why is literati not the best category to place them in?

Because they may be a bit too fat or too full or too something else to be considered "good" literati. So, if they are placed into the literati category they aren't good trees anymore even though they might be very good.... something style...

Well, that could be a problem maybe? You know I don't get out much so just guessing really.

 

[Smoke]

Not to cause too much of a kink here....

but the word Literati is a Latin word. It means learned ones. Maybe the correct term for these trees are Bunjin. Literati were ancient Chinese scholars and monks (the learned ones of the day) that sat around a discussed trees that defied nature. Why is that tree 100 feet tall and foliage only on the upper 20 percent? That kind of thing.

It's a safe bet that we have no idea what they talked about or what they looked at. All we know is what has been written in the last 100 years. That is all we know so making these quick down and dirty assessments of how a tree fits this form is kinda ground breaking in my opinion.

Below are Bunjin trees, mostly cypress of the sort that would be found along any Japan coast line. This is the natural mental model of a bunjin.



This is the man made mental model of a Bunjin.

 

[Random User]

We all share the same interest, but nothing within that interest dictates that we all share the same taste or opinion... that's what makes it art... for my part, I'm more interested in the horticulture part, and I'll leave the arguing of the fine points to anyone, or everyone else.

 

[MichaelS]

I was reading about literati a couple of days ago. Two comments that stuck in my mind were....''Literati has nothing to do with the shape of the tree'' ( I presume that does not include the girth) and, ''You can't just design a literati tree, it kind of happens by accident''.
While that might not be strictly true, it gives us an idea that literati is really something which should not betray any artificial work done to it......not easy.

 

[MichaelS]

View attachment 127199 View attachment 127200 View attachment 127201 View attachment 127202 View attachment 127203 ...

Wow, inspirational! Some genuine contenders there. 10,11 and 17 are some of my favorites.
Good thread Mr Smoke!

 

[Smoke]

Wow, inspirational! Some genuine contenders there. 10,11 and 17 are some of my favorites.
Good thread Mr Smoke!

I have two hard drives full of pictures. It's not easy to find what I want at any given time, but I manage....

These are cypress trees in Monterey California where my past teacher of ten years lived. The pine bonsai is one of his trees.

 

[milehigh_7]

''You can't just design a literati tree, it kind of happens by accident''.

Maybe this has to do with that glorious event that happens when you break a branch you were bending or maybe a frost takes some new shoots and by golly what's left is actually really beautiful. Or you are carving and you slip and take off WAAAAAAAAYYYYY more than you intended. You can't believe the tree lived, yet lo and behold it looks good!

You know the feeling you get when you or someone you know just overcame crazy odds and won the game or recovered from the illness or graduated college? Maybe that's the feeling the literati should produce. That feeling of unlikely, unexpected but very pleasing success.

 

[Smoke]

Here is a potential observation based on the first photos posted and my perceptions.
I think all the trees posted by prior to the post I've quoted above are of American origins...I suspect the trees in this post are of Japanese origins....Smoke do you know?? Anyone else notice the difference?

Personally, I really don't think most folks outside of Japan and China have a real appreciation for the cultural history that plays into the Literati style....To me that is why there is such a vast difference in the photos Smoke posted.

Folks outside of those Asian cultures are trying to copy a style(a generalization) while those of the culture have a much more developed appreciation and level of experience that equates to better trees in the style...

As a side note....to me, literati is really the only style where something less than the appearance of peak conditioning is the goal...I think this is why good examples evoke very different emotions when compared to the other styles of bonsai.

The need of humans to classify and judge things never ceases to amaze me...myself with included.

I think almost all of the photo's I posted were of BIB* trees. Some may have been from a REBS* show, but since most BIB members are in the REBS club they show the same trees. They are all current trees from the same club for the most part. Just different feels.

*
BIB-Bay Island Bonsai- Boon Manakitivipart
REBS- Redwood Empire Bonsai Society-Kathy Shaner

 

[Smoke]

Maybe this has to do with that glorious event that happens when you break a branch you were bending or maybe a frost takes some new shoots and by golly what's left is actually really beautiful. Or you are carving and you slip and take off WAAAAAAAAYYYYY more than you intended. You can't believe the tree lived, yet lo and behold it looks good!

You know the feeling you get when you or someone you know just overcame crazy odds and won the game or recovered from the illness or graduated college? Maybe that's the feeling the literati should produce. That feeling of unlikely, unexpected but very pleasing success.

Are the trees the Literati or are the people that look and feel them the Literati? Maybe the trees are Bunjin?

 

[Smoke]

Here are some actual pictures along the Japan coast.



In a lot of ways they look no different than the trees I posted from along the coast in Monterey. so if this is the imagery that we see in real life along the coast and elsewhere, where did this stylized imagery come from?

 

[Smoke]

Remember those Literati, the learned ones, they were also the artist class in Japan and China. They painted. What we have today is the representation of what they saw as they painted nature.

All we have is the scrolls and the artwork of the past. The trees depicted in these photos is pretty true to form of what is seen around the countryside in Japan.



And then this guy Yoshijiro Urushibaro paints something a little more stylized. Something more Ephemeral as Judy put it.



If I were to post an image that to me captures whats going on in this painting it would be this composition.

 

[Smoke]

I would say that tree for tree, Rome and Spain have the best Bunjin type trees. Mostly Italian Stone Pines and Loblolly pines.

 

[Rusty Davis]

My thoughts on Literati/Bunjin
I'm very new to the concepts of bonsai and have never styled a tree to the point I would call it a bonsai.
With the lack of standards to classify a literati only the viewer can call it a literati. If the observer does not see a literati then it's a little tree in a pot because it doesn't fit the other classifications. I'm sure that's what makes them hard to pull off.

 

[Solange]

Maybe the trees are Bunjin?

I dislike the baiting followed by rehearsed explanations. I presume you do know that bunjin has essentially the same meaning as literati, but figured I would add that here for those that don't. Cheers.

 

[aml1014]

Don't the Chinese call it literati and Japanese call it bunjin?
To me a bunjin tree is something special from the other styles. It embodys the abstract beauty of calligraphy, while still suggestionin the rugged and gorgeous nature of the wild. I feel that the bunjin trees are made to depict a tree impressionistically rather then realistically. They are beautiful, yet rugged, and still you must represent balance and realism, which we all know is a very difficult thing.

Aaron

 

[Cadillactaste]

Great thread Al! @Smoke...I'm not in any rush to add anything in my collection. Just to take what I have to the next level. That being said...if I ever came across a literati that I felt I could swing for...that would be my ultimate addition to my collection. Is to someday...have one on my bench. Something quirky but...does well in my zone. So I've taken to pots to fill the gap...until that time happens. Pots with no trees but just for admiration. I recall when I used to feel a pot needed a tree. I'm so glad I outgrew that stage on the journey. Allows one to appreciate things for what they are. Thanks for the thread...enjoyed reading along.

 

[Smoke]

I dislike the baiting followed by rehearsed explanations. I presume you do know that bunjin has essentially the same meaning as literati, but figured I would add that here for those that don't. Cheers.

You also need to do more reading. Baiting is the only way to get any interaction around here. You look funny with the hook in your mouth. The Chinese language is rife with Latin....so it seems