Intelligent conversation of the Literati

[Djtommy]

I think that often a tree gets styles as a literati just because one is not sure what else can be done with it. guilty of this myself aswell. Or perhaps it can be explained as getting the best out of the material...
To me, a good literati/bunjin should show age, a young tree can not convince. Though it can still look nice though
It also should have subtle movement in the trunk, so not big taper and also not straight trunk.
Foliage enough for the trees health and to show movement

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Here are some actual pictures along the Japan coast.

View attachment 127233

In a lot of ways they look no different than the trees I posted from along the coast in Monterey. so if this is the imagery that we see in real life along the coast and elsewhere, where did this stylized imagery come from?

And then this guy Yoshijiro Urushibaro paints something a little more stylized. Something more Ephemeral as Judy put it.

View attachment 127250

There are pines like this that grow at the coastal areas of Texas near the Gulf of Mexico. They're usually taller, older, and really look like they've been through a lot; they've survived the hurricanes and tropical storms. It's been difficult to take a good picture of any of them as I'm usually driving on the road when I see them with nowhere to stop.

 

[Smoke]

There are pines like this that grow at the coastal areas of Texas near the Gulf of Mexico. They're usually taller, older, and really look like they've been through a lot; they've survived the hurricanes and tropical storms. It's been difficult to take a good picture of any of them as I'm usually driving on the road when I see them with nowhere to stop.

Based on this look around the world it seems that these trees are pretty much weather induced type trees.

Even the Southeast USA has them.

 

[Velodog2]

No one seems to have mentioned yet ratios or proportions or trying to mathematically define a literati. It's maybe something that's not very appealing to do when talking about a beautiful object. However if you really wanted to define literati I think that it would be possible although maybe not simple to do so that way.

It's been said other places I think that a literati has foliage only on the upper third of the trunk. In that way it reverses the proportions of other styles. This is too simplistic, but not completely inaccurate I think. There are many fine examples that meet this criteria, and many that don't. There are even trees that meet this criteria but still may not quite feel like literati.

However if we used other parameters that are more difficult to define than trunk height I think we could be more universally successful. For example if we used that concept of negative space then we start to define the volume that a tree occupies. If we said something like a literati is a tree composed of not less than two-thirds negative space I think we would be pretty damned close. If the positive space was defined to also include the thickness of the trunk we could account for examples with relatively thick trunks that still work.

There is still a place for talking about the twistiness of the trunk or if it goes off in unexpected directions. But there are obviously clear literati that have quite straight trunks so I don't think these qualities are universally necessary to the style. They may however help push a borderline example over, which gets back to the feely part of the definition that we probably can't fully escape possibly because negative space or a tree's volume are difficult to precisely define. There is also the question of what proportion precisely defines the style which probably cannot be exactly defined either.

Anyway that's my best shot at this question!

 

[milehigh_7]

I dislike the baiting followed by rehearsed explanations. I presume you do know that bunjin has essentially the same meaning as literati, but figured I would add that here for those that don't. Cheers.

I don't mind anything that actually makes me think. I am ignorant on this subject. This is causing me to attempt to remedy that situation. It's tough when there is not a lot of written material and what is out there is essentially a cut and paste from someone else. Al's right it has always been difficult to get participation so by any means necessary...

 

[wireme]

where did this stylized imagery come from?

Has anyone mentioned yet the idea that the style isn't meant to represent the trees that the literati were discussing but rather meant to represent the literati who were discussing the trees?

Skinny trunks because they lead an astute life of contemplation and fasting. Bent and crooked because they were perhaps not the strong athletic type and didn't live a life of comfort etc, etc...wise old beings living a life of solitude, contemplation and minimalism....

 

[kakejiku]

You also need to do more reading. Baiting is the only way to get any interaction around here. You look funny with the hook in your mouth. The Chinese language is rife with Latin....so it seems

文人 characters are Bunjin. First character is literature/grammar, second character is person. I do not think the Chinese/Japanese language is rife with latin...more likely the term was translated from the original characters into a latin term to define the esoteric nature of this concept...literati. I can't find the thread, but a couple years back I posted a display of a JRP literati display, and the "Bonsai Nut" aka admin of the site said it was not defined enough for him to be a literati....and I just thought "huh, someone who studies bonsai more than me and can't see the tree (true idea) because of the forest (too much pool of knowledge." So if you want to go back and find that Japanese Red Pine literati in a Takasago themed display perhaps you can understand how I view literati. (and it is not just the bonsai, you have to understand the story of Takasago as well.)

 

[coh]

I'm not going to make any claims about what makes one tree a literati/bunjin, and another not. But I have been thinking about the topic, and browsing through some books, including Zhao Qingquan's ("Literati Style Penjing") and some of the National Exhibition albums.

What I can say is that, out of all the various bonsai styles, the one that impacts me the most is a well done literati/bunjin, which gives me the feeling of an old tree that has struggled to survive in its environment. It has sacrificed limbs along the way, usually made many course adjustments (trunk movement, though there are certainly effective examples with straight trunks), and lived a life of scarcity...as evidenced by the relatively thin trunk and small foliage mass. In a way, to me this is a metaphor for human life (all life, really). Even those of us fortunate to have a good living still must deal with hurdles life throws at us, and we bare the scars - both internal and external, mental and physical - of the struggles we face. As we age we gain wisdom (hopefully) while losing physical abilities and outward beauty, just as the tree loses branches and gains scars...character.

No other bonsai style moves me as strongly. Those twisted, contorted mountain junipers also show the battle scars of a long tough life, but when they are capped by vibrant green triangular canopies, that changes the image. Maybe it reflects a tree that has struggled but now is strong and healthy...still beautiful and compelling, but not as evocative and certainly contradictory. I think one can achieve a similar feeling (like literati/bunjin) from this type of material, but the foliage masses need to be smaller and less manicured, more "wild looking." That is something that is hard to codify, just like any "rules" for literati.

 

[Solange]

You also need to do more reading. Baiting is the only way to get any interaction around here. You look funny with the hook in your mouth. The Chinese language is rife with Latin....so it seems

I think maybe you read the post after mine and conflated the content?

 

[MichaelS]

Smoke, post: 412548, member: 66"]I would say that tree for tree, Rome and Spain have the best Bunjin type trees. Mostly Italian Stone Pines and Loblolly pines.

I think literati is more trees which have been forced to grow that way due to environment rather than grow that way naturally

 

[MichaelS]

There are a few terms from the wabi sabi that might help to understand literati concept in bonsai.
* A lack of progress
* One of a kind
* Simple
* Irregular
* Unpretentious
* The suggestion of natural process
* Fragile
* Perfection in imperfection.
That would leave out a lot of modern bonsai and that's why it is so difficult to achieve. As soon as you put your hand on the tree, you begin to pile up the opposite of the above qualities!

 

[Smoke]

I think literati is more trees which have been forced to grow that way due to environment rather than grow that way naturally

Maybe we could ask a tree?

 

[milehigh_7]

Maybe we could ask a tree?

They talk to me Smoke... but now that I think about it, I'm really not sure where the voices come from...

 

[Djtommy]

They talk to me Smoke... but now that I think about it, I'm really not sure where the voices come from...

Just assume the voices are right, always think they are right, thats what i do

 

[Smoke]

I'm sure.....

 

[Cadillactaste]

文人 characters are Bunjin. First character is literature/grammar, second character is person. I do not think the Chinese/Japanese language is rife with latin...more likely the term was translated from the original characters into a latin term to define the esoteric nature of this concept...literati. I can't find the thread, but a couple years back I posted a display of a JRP literati display, and the "Bonsai Nut" aka admin of the site said it was not defined enough for him to be a literati....and I just thought "huh, someone who studies bonsai more than me and can't see the tree (true idea) because of the forest (too much pool of knowledge." So if you want to go back and find that Japanese Red Pine literati in a Takasago themed display perhaps you can understand how I view literati. (and it is not just the bonsai, you have to understand the story of Takasago as well.)

I went looking...you referred to man in scroll in my cross searching threads but the link attached was invalid. So I did more searching. Is this the one you were thinking of? Found here in this link. http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/man-in-a-scroll-ii.13752/

 

[kakejiku]

I went looking...you referred to man in scroll in my cross searching threads but the link attached was invalid. So I did more searching. Is this the one you were thinking of? Found here in this link. http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/man-in-a-scroll-ii.13752/
View attachment 127379

Yep...that's the one...Just so you know, this display was actually placed outside at the entrance to the exhibition. Why do you think that was so?

 

[just.wing.it]

I hope these pics are legible...just a few blurbs from books I have, on the topic.....
It's interesting, the similarities in these 5 descriptions of literati / bunjin.
Notice the one specifies "Chinese literati"....
I think the common thread in all of them is:
1) slender trunk - size doesn't matter, only the relative size matters, and "gentle movement" is necessary....(though some trees shown earlier are clearly more than gently curved, and are IMHO great representations of the style).
2) sparse branches/foliage - always in the upper section of the tree, showing its apparent struggle for survival.
3) abstract-ness...if you will ....this is the most important part of what "defines" the style, IMO...
The abstract is abstract.
What else can be said to define the abstract?
It can be almost anything, I'd say....
It is imagination on display, usually...whatever the medium.
Abstract bonsai is what we need to keep pushing the art forward.

 

[coh]

After my last post about how literati/bunjin style trees often evoke the feeling of an old tree that has struggled to survive, I started thinking about the maple that @Owen Reich displayed at the 2014 National Exhibition. A photo, from Jonas Dupuich's blog (https://bonsaitonight.com/2014/10/14/shohin-bonsai-at-the-4th-us-national-bonsai-exhibition/), is shown below. To me, this was one of the most striking and evocative trees at the show. It's not an old specimen, in fact, to me it feels like a young tree. But there was just something about its graceful, elegant appearance that struck a chord with me. Many others said the same. Maybe it reminded me of a place I'd been, a cool spot on a hot summer day. I'm still not sure, but I loved it then, and seeing the photo brings back the same feeling.

But...is it literati/bunjin? Slanting? Something else? Does it matter?

 

[just.wing.it]

After my last post about how literati/bunjin style trees often evoke the feeling of an old tree that has struggled to survive, I started thinking about the maple that @Owen Reich displayed at the 2014 National Exhibition. A photo, from Jonas Dupuich's blog (https://bonsaitonight.com/2014/10/14/shohin-bonsai-at-the-4th-us-national-bonsai-exhibition/), is shown below. To me, this was one of the most striking and evocative trees at the show. It's not an old specimen, in fact, to me it feels like a young tree. But there was just something about its graceful, elegant appearance that struck a chord with me. Many others said the same. Maybe it reminded me of a place I'd been, a cool spot on a hot summer day. I'm still not sure, but I loved it then, and seeing the photo brings back the same feeling.

But...is it literati/bunjin? Slanting? Something else? Does it matter?

View attachment 127416

doesn't matter....
Makes me smile

......but I'd say no, not bunjin, definitely abstract and slanting, great use of moss and negative space.