In praise of the American Persimmon, Diospyros virginiana some field photos

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Wow....I'm amazed at how Rita's leaves reduced. Great info!!! Got my first look at the stand of D. virginiana. These trees were planted behind a very old barn which is no longer there. Fruit trees of days gone by. The owner said they must be close to 100 years. Most of the larger trees don't have much for looks as bonsai. There are quite a few 4' to 5' saplings so we tried a dig or two.... yikes! China syndrome trying to find lateral roots. My research did say they were hard to transplant because of the tap root. So much for digging. I think my best bet is layering the saplings. If that works maybe try for a crotch on one of the larger trees. @Leo in N E Illinois do you have any special insight in layering the species or just give it the normal college try??BTW @Shima I'm 63 and haven't had a persimmon

Ain't that bark something? In my neck of the woods, fruit should be ripe, or approaching ripe within the next 4 or 5 weeks. You'll get your chance. If you can't reach the fruit, shake the tree, ripe ones will fall.

I have never actually air layered or successfully rooted cuttings. I've read it's been done. I have a couple root cuttings that went into pots last week, don't know if it will work. Dirr's manual suggested late summer or autumn hardwood cuttings.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If calyx twists free from the fruit very easily, it is ripe. If the calyx resists twisting off, the fruit probably won't be ready. If not ready it WILL be astringent, but as nasty as the flavor is, it won't hurt you, it's not poisonous. Just rinse your mouth with beer, or beverage of choice, laugh, wait a bit and then try the next one.

 

[oddirt]

Leo, thanks for sharing your knowledge and passion for these trees. You’ve convinced me to create some bonsai with them. I’m thinking about a forest planting and a couple specimen trees. First saplings from eBay arrived, along with seeds (which are not fresh so I’ll be ordering more in the fall).

I have a question for you about seed-grown. Do you lop the taproot early on to promote fine root development? I’ve done this with other trees I’ve grown from seed in the first 6 months with great success. Not sure how D virginiana would respond.

Gracias,

Tri

 

[sorce]

@Leo in N E Illinois my phone won't let me text you back! Work and baseball this weekend.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@oddirt
Seed may last several years stored dry and cool. Like in paper seed packets in the refrigerator. This doesn't count as stratification, because they are dry, no active metabolism.

They don't need an excessively long cool, moist stratification. Maybe 8 weeks to 12 weeks. So don't stratify them until about 12 weeks before ideal weather to be put outside in spring. Soak dry seed 24 to 48 hours in room temp water. Once planted, they will probably wait until temperatures are above 80 F to sprout. (26 or 27 C). Mine, planted outside in May sprout first week of July.

I have consistently had issues transplanting seedlings. Mortality rates are high. Sometimes only 50% will survive. It doesn't seem to matter much, early spring, middle of the summer, early autumn, late autumn, early winter. My best success seems early autumn, but I still loose 25 %. I have not figured out what I am doing wrong, or what the secret trick is. Needles to say, I've been reluctant to cut any roots. The tap roots is not huge, I just gently fold it under when moving to a new pot.

Maybe I should experiment with cutting taproot just a few weeks after the first pair of leaves appears. Might make things easier.

 

[oddirt]

@Leo in N E Illinois, thanks for taking the time to post an in-depth response and for sharing tips on germination.

The plants I got were bare-root and about 24” tall—they seem to be doing well after a few weeks in their new home on the West Coast and are starting to put out new leaves. The grower said they were 2 years old.

Transplanting sounds tricky based on your what you’ve shared. I wonder if the trick with the roots is to try and leave them in a container big enough for them to stay in for a while. I’ll also try a taproot prune of a few seedlings to see what happens.

Now I just have to grow them out for what, 8 years or so, until they are big enough for what I’ve got in mind.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@oddirt
You are in California, you should or could also try some of the other native or nearly native persimmons. D. kaki is grown commercially in the Valley. One or two of the smaller fruit varieties would grow well, and could be used as bonsai. Diospyros texana, the Texas persimmon, is very similar to princess persimmon, being a small to medium size shrub, but with black fruit. Diospyros californianum is a rare shrub, native to the Baja Peninsula. It is very similar to D texana. Of course the Asian Princess persimmon is hardy in your area. And if you had room indoors or a greenhouse to protect them from frost the Central America native D. nigra also called D. digyna should grow well, known as chocolate pudding fruit for it's taste, color and texture.

There are many sub tropical and tropical Diospyros, most grown for fruit, and the true ebony species are wild harvest for wood. Just about any could be grown for bonsai though the tropical species do have larger leaves.

 

[oddirt]

Hi @Leo in N E Illinois , most of the plants I received last year had apparently been root pruned already, having only ‘fine’ roots—they are relatively thick. I did trim a couple of tap roots and everything stayed alive.
Of the 17 I have almost all have started leaving out.

Two of them however have started browning. I have them in pumice, lava and composted fir bark in a 1:1:1 mix. Not the best image but you can see leaves melting versus the healthy ones behind. Ideas on what might be causing this?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Honestly
I can not tell what is wrong.

Every year I loose a few seedling Persimmons, to something similar. They are susceptible to some fungus or bacteria or nematode or something? I have never figured it out. This may be the reason they are not more common. I am working on figuring out mine, when I know I will share. Your mix sounds fine.

 

[oddirt]

These have grown really quickly and are already thickening up. My growing season usually goes until late fall so I’m excited to see how they develop over the next few months.

As you can see, they are top heavy in their foliage. A couple of the trees have back budded down low on the trunk spontaneously which could help with creating slight taper. But I’m thinking some like this one could use some help now instead of later—so that it can have a relatively scar-free, smooth taper. The final appearance I hope for would be similar to the trees in their natural environment.

Would you do a hard cut low and hope it buds out? Trim back down to a few pairs on top to induce back budding? Or do something else? And would now be a safe time to do it with more than three months left of growing?

 

[oddirt]

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sorry, I just saw your reply to this thread.
With 3 months left to your growing season it is probably safe to chop below all the foliage. When you have less than 10 weeks left, I would say it's too late to cut to zero leaves. Fall pruning, you leave at least 3 nodes ( 3 leaves) on every branch. If you want flowers and fruit, in spring, leave 5 to 7 nodes.

 

[Gabler]

Honestly
I can not tell what is wrong.

Every year I loose a few seedling Persimmons, to something similar. They are susceptible to some fungus or bacteria or nematode or something? I have never figured it out. This may be the reason they are not more common. I am working on figuring out mine, when I know I will share. Your mix sounds fine.

Have you made any progress toward figuring out why they die after a transplant?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nope, not yet. I still have a fair number of seedlings, but I have simply avoided transplanting them. They are in Anderson flats, bulking up.

 

[Asymetrix]

These are truly beautiful trees but I've had zero success with container culture in regards to transplanting and root work as well.

When I first moved to Illinois I was deeply in love with the native persimmon, and the sassafras. Two of the most unique and beautiful trees in the woodlands, both of which absolutely refuse to be containerized.

To quell my desires I've decided to plant a grove of the native persimmon surrounding a future outdoor amphitheatre and entertainment space.

Perhaps some of the cultivars in the nursery trade are more tolerant? I rarely if ever discourage people from trying new things but this species will bring much frustration and disappointment despite your efforts.

 

[19Mateo83]

Does anyone know the survival rates for American persimmons after collection? If they don’t take to transplant well i would assume the survivability rates are low for collected trees? I have a few I would like to collect but since they are such a slow growing species I have held off because I don’t want to kill them in the process.

 

[Gabler]

Nope, not yet. I still have a fair number of seedlings, but I have simply avoided transplanting them. They are in Anderson flats, bulking up.

Gotcha. I've been sowing fresh seeds as I eat the persimmons from a tree on my parents' property this fall, and I started digging up old threads that mention persimmons to see if I could find any information on their care requirements. I was disappointed to learn they're finicky about root work.

I was thinking maybe a granular systemic fungicide could protect the tree after a repot, but then I'd also worry about burning the roots. I also thought to seal the cut wounds on the roots as though they were cut branches, but I don't know how well sealant would work if you're trying to keep the roots from drying out.

 

[NaoTK]

Gotcha. I've been sowing fresh seeds as I eat the persimmons from a tree on my parents' property this fall, and I started digging up old threads that mention persimmons to see if I could find any information on their care requirements. I was disappointed to learn they're finicky about root work.

I was thinking maybe a granular systemic fungicide could protect the tree after a repot, but then I'd also worry about burning the roots. I also thought to seal the cut wounds on the roots as though they were cut branches, but I don't know how well sealant would work if you're trying to keep the roots from drying out.

Read this if you haven't, particularly post #18 https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/summer-repotting-of-chojubai-and-princess-persimmon.61163/

 

[Gabler]

Read this if you haven't, particularly post #18 https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/summer-repotting-of-chojubai-and-princess-persimmon.61163/

Thanks! I had seen that thread, but I didn't connect the dots between princess persimmon and American persimmon. Maybe the Valley of Suck is the problem... I'll have to test it.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

These are truly beautiful trees but I've had zero success with container culture in regards to transplanting and root work as well.

When I first moved to Illinois I was deeply in love with the native persimmon, and the sassafras. Two of the most unique and beautiful trees in the woodlands, both of which absolutely refuse to be containerized.

To quell my desires I've decided to plant a grove of the native persimmon surrounding a future outdoor amphitheatre and entertainment space.

Perhaps some of the cultivars in the nursery trade are more tolerant? I rarely if ever discourage people from trying new things but this species will bring much frustration and disappointment despite your efforts.

Read @NaoTK posts, even in Illinois, I found summer repotting is better for American persimmon than any other time of year. Also note, don't remove more than 25% to 30% of the roots at a time. I just gently fold the roots under to make it fit in a pot, rather than chop off the roots. I still have mortalities, but not so bad any more.

Named cultivars of Diospyros are all grafted, usually with D. lotus as understock. Graft unions are often unsightly, but if you want to spend the time. Grow your grafted trees a while, then make an air layer for the bonsai material.

I'd just grow them in the ground for fruit, forget bonsai.

Sassafras, this species is obligated to live in very acidic soils. You will never be able to grow it in the ground in northern Illinois. Our soils are limestone derived. You can tell when you are in the "sand counties" of Michigan and Wisconsin, you start seeing Sassafras. I spent many a summer at a scout camp near Whitehall, Michigan, and sassafras immediately brings back memories of those summers.