I'm the New Caretaker for an Old Larch Grove, looking for insight.

[Cadillactaste]

I do suggest you to hit up the search engine. I'm not sure what you are looking for. But by using the search, you may pick and choose what you wish to bookmark for future reference. Love that option.

Wish you the best.

 

[Jorgens86]

Btw you know what type of larch is it..??? Hard to tell from pictures!!
Japanese, tamarac, europian or some hybrid??

 

[Shibui]

I was thinking of putting some very gentle directional pull on them this year, maybe only enough to halt or correct if they are actually still slipping farther, do you think that is too stressful?

Just moving the trunks a bit should not be too stressful on the trees but it may be worth waiting until you can see the rock and roots before making any alterations.
Looks like a number of branches do not have long new shoots. Those are the ones that I would be concerned about. A mentioned, many trees will just shut off under performing branches in favor of the ones that are growing better. You may be able to use all the current branches but it is also possible you will need to redesign around more dead branches.

 

[sorce]

I think I figured out the @Rivka puzzle. I find it interesting that you so near "get into it" all the time. Today I realized you have a quite innocent short fuse for "unhelpful", and your return language is brilliantly colorful. Satirical almost. The large contrast, is what some folks let hit them, but the actual, very reasonable exchange should be enjoyed. Or not, I'll enjoy it anyway!

I just don't want more folks building their thoughts of you off internet bullshit.

I feel like it was arranged well in the shallower pot, and the one tree kinda fell over upon replant. This may matter when it comes time to get it back to where is was.

This is a specific case where, regardless of the composition of the "black stuff", it is severely halting or altering the view of the rest. Like a beautiful person with feces smeared on their face, beautiful sure, but they still get no kiss!
Folks are more likely to fear the kiss, or run against your fuse, in this state. You wouldn't be surprised if folks didn't want to kiss the shit faced beauty. You shouldn't be too surprised of this situation.

The weeds in the bottom, the ugly orange pot, these are merely things that prevent some folks from seeing what is possible. So it becomes your advice.

@parhamr recently updated thread on Larch is gangster. I wouldn't see the need to seek any other assistance for development after seeing that.

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

This has tons of aprox 10cm long growths all over it at the tips (and tips of a number of side branches) would you think that is a good sign?
I've been searching around for some explanation of types or stages of growth on larches, like why these long single growths and how that is different from the small "florettes" that line the older branches. I seem to only come up with talk of emerging growth "the paintbrush" reference. I'll keep looking, im sure more info is out there.

What I'm seeing from the pictures is that some parts have those long extensions, those seem to be strong.
But.. Compartmentalisation..
I see other parts overgrown, and some parts with just those florettes.
This makes me think that those weaker parts could use some strength.
I think that's what Peter implied to say too.

Here's one of mine that I tried to balance:


But the difference between weak and shaded parts and stronger parts is striking:


I'm pinching stronger shoots to let light in, and I rearrange branches to give the parts closer to the trunk ample light. The wood is soft so it doesn't always require wire; just lay them on top of the rest.

In the center off the following image, you see a weak shoot that I want to cut back to in the future. But to be able to do that, it would need to be strong. It isn't right now. This means I'll have to find a way for it to catch some extra rays, by both pinching back stronger stuff (and not over doing it), feeding heavily and making sure it gets more light.


In general, my aim is to equalize strength throughout the tree. I do this by cutting woody parts when the buds glow in spring, and letting extensions go for a while. When I see tiny shoots being left behind, I pinch off the stronger stuff near it. But only four needle rows. I leave enough of the fresh shoots to keep the branches alive and kicking. Cutting back too much could kill the branch.
Those cut shoots will produce new buds in a matter of weeks.

That's the kind of balancing I think your trees would benefit from. But before you're at that point where you can start cutting back fresh shoots, I think it would be good to see if you're able to get those weaker parts thriving. It's a nice target to work towards before the end of summer.

I think you'll agree that objectively, each one of those trees has strong parts and weaker parts. From what I see, I'd say that 50% of each individual is strong, but the other 50% isn't, yet.
By cleaning it up, removing the moss and maybe by putting the pot at an angle for better sun coverage, you should be able to balance them some more without cutting anything. Strong growth all around is a good starting point.

 

[Rid]

I do suggest you to hit up the search engine. I'm not sure what you are looking for. But by using the search, you may pick and choose what you wish to bookmark for future reference. Love that option.

Wish you the best.

Is it possible to reprimand the search engine if it doesn’t answer questions to your satisfaction?

 

[Cadillactaste]

Is it possible to reprimand the search engine if it doesn’t answer questions to your satisfaction?

What specifics are you not finding your answer to? I've found it to be quite useful to my inquires. Your original post...wasn't point blank as to your questions...Which was why I shared what I felt to be the most detrimental, repotting time. But if you specifically listed questions...I'm sure maybe those with longer experience could answer you.

 

[August44]

Shibui,
yeah, I agree that a tree's value is more in its structure and look than plain old age and that honestly, this is not the best looking grove around. But I also don't think there are any huge red flags health-wise, and it is certainly worth working and learning on and genuinely enjoying my first chance to care for an older bonsai.
Though I have heard it can be in warmer climates larches are not usually happy, I do not live in one of those climates, this tree has lived outside in my city, year-round, for more than 60 years, I think if it were cranky, it would have been clear long before now.
I'm fine with opinions, that is why I posted, I just don't think they have been very constructive. Your comment about balancing the look of lichen with the sunlight needs for back budding was the first real exception to that, and thank you for taking the time. And yes I did search the forum and a few others as well, I always do and have been reading thru what I found, I don't expect folks to search for me, just if they happened to know of a great thread or article, I always love getting pointed to the gems.

I would like to hear why folks think these trees are unhealthy? Peter44 what is your reasoning, besides blaming "black stuff" that you can't even identify? I would love to be educated if there is something folks are seeing that I'm not. It has good new growth on all its live branches and the ones that are dead have clearly been that way for many years. While Lichen and moss can block light, it does not in itself indicate an unhealthy tree from what I know, it is a really common sight on nearly anything left alone fore too long in the valleys of the pacific northwest. Though I admit my knowledge is more about full-size forests than the tiny bonsai ones.

I am responding to you mam, but I'm afraid the conversation is going to go South very quickly. You ask for advice, but it sounds like you already have all the answers, so why ask? The lichen in the trees is not being "blamed" for anything. It's just ugly IMO and makes the trees look very unkept. Take a look at Larch Bonsai on the net and see how many you see with lichen all over the trees. The pot is not right for the grove and it looks like someone (in a hurry) stuffed the trees in it and then just left it. The ground coverings, whatever all that stuff is, is just not right and makes the whole thing look junky IMO. Anything else you'd like to know??

 

[augustine]

It’s a cool group and you can see the age .

.I’m in sone 7a, and we consider It’s too warm here to grow larch . You’re in 8b. It maybe it’s the humiditY In my region?
I dont think these will survive If removed from the group an Rearranged.

 

[Rivka]

I think I figured out the @Rivka puzzle. I find it interesting that you so near "get into it" all the time. Today I realized you have a quite innocent short fuse for "unhelpful", and your return language is brilliantly colorful. Satirical almost. The large contrast, is what some folks let hit them, but the actual, very reasonable exchange should be enjoyed. Or not, I'll enjoy it anyway!

My dear man, I do not think I have heard such a insightful description of me in many a year. If a person had reviews like products do, I would pick this one to print on my brochure.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

I own a couple of larches.
If buds are shaded out, they're usually rejected in the next year; they don't open up and don't draw energy so the entire branch might be abscised by the tree.
I also noted that weaker parts usually don't show good extending growth, a tree in good health can live like that for decades; putting out just a tiny bit of foliage on every bud every year. I think @Brad in GR has a larch like that where one can see how the rings of every years foliage build on top of another (sorry if I remember it wrong, then I don't know who posted it).
However, that's in the wild. Where things live at a slow pace and die at a fast pace. Once a larch is potted, I think it should produce long extending growth all over; it's a sign of vitality. A friend of mine had a tiny forest of larches, they didn't produce extending growth, they just put out one 'layer' of needles. They didn't survive the winter. Larches seem to be good at compartmentalization, so a weak branch this year could mean that it's a dead branch the next year.

This is a neutral observation on my part. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

You remember right. When in a bog, Larix laricina grows slowly here in northern LP of Michigan. Little bit each year. In my raised beds... multiple flushes of 6+ inch growth per year keeping those feet nice and wet.
OP is from Pacific Northwest so id venture maybe mountain larch (saw some in Idaho) - the other species of larch aside from our eastern/American larch do not require as frequent watering.

 

[leatherback]

Larch that need a bit of health I let shoot for a few inches, before trimming back to the second visible new bud,
For larches that are happy I tip-prune once they start running. I then grab the centre of the brush and gently pull it out, much like tip-pruning maples.

I would trim the top of the trees a little bit, and let the lower branches run for now. Come winter, do a proper cleanup. But for now, just use the rest of the growing season to get stregnth. Only once you get branches so dense that a branch below it is shaded out, thin a little.

Sun but no hot roots are what makes larches happy

 

[Rivka]

I do suggest you to hit up the search engine. I'm not sure what you are looking for. But by using the search, you may pick and choose what you wish to bookmark for future reference. Love that option.

Wish you the best.

I’m a search-o-holic, you can always assume that wether it’s because I love reading and learning or simply because a hate feeling dumb, that I will have searched ad nauseam on whatever subject I post about.
But seeing as there is dozens of bonsai forums, and hundreds of clubs and articles, I feel its smart to put feelers out for gems folks may know about. I always frame the request in asking for links, so that I make it clear I’m thrilled to go dig and read and teach myself, I never expect the answers to be handed to me.

 

[Rivka]

Btw you know what type of larch is it..??? Hard to tell from pictures!!
Japanese, tamarac, europian or some hybrid??

I have no idea and i was hoping for insight on that very issue. The two retained cones it has are pretty directly attached to the branch. That is likely the most identifiable feature. I can tell its not a Japanese Larch because the cones do not have the curled out sections that Larix kaempferi are known for. I have been searching for a bit on how to tell larches apart, and most things i find either contrast European and Japanese types and don't go a lot farther, or they base it off features that don't display themselves in a potted plant. So we have eastern, and western types to consider.

 

[Rivka]

What I'm seeing from the pictures is that some parts have those long extensions, those seem to be strong.
But.. Compartmentalisation..
I see other parts overgrown, and some parts with just those florettes.
This makes me think that those weaker parts could use some strength.

That's the kind of balancing I think your trees would benefit from. But before you're at that point where you can start cutting back fresh shoots, I think it would be good to see if you're able to get those weaker parts thriving. It's a nice target to work towards before the end of summer.

thank you for that explanation, steping in to encourage balance makes a lot if sense, we all would like to think that a tree would work extra hard to help a lagging area catch up, but nature is a cruel mother and tends to abandon the week.
I’ll plan to focus primarily on light and feeding for the summer

 

[Rivka]

.I’m in sone 7a, and we consider It’s too warm here to grow larch . You’re in 8b. It maybe it’s the humiditY In my region?

yeah we have very moderate coastal valley weather around here, the numbers assigned to regions just don't tell the full story. And the usda zones focus mostly on average low temps, giving little attention to summer temps or other factors like you refer too.

Here is a crazy look at the summer difference between my town and yours, i used to live in DC, no thank you on the muggy summer rainy season!!
here is

maryland:

and Portland:

 

[Rivka]

Larch that need a bit of health I let shoot for a few inches, before trimming back to the second visible new bud,
For larches that are happy I tip-prune once they start running. I then grab the centre of the brush and gently pull it out, much like tip-pruning maples.

I would trim the top of the trees a little bit, and let the lower branches run for now. Come winter, do a proper cleanup. But for now, just use the rest of the growing season to get stregnth. Only once you get branches so dense that a branch below it is shaded out, thin a little.

Sun but no hot roots are what makes larches happy

thanks for the detailed info, makes total sense.
Yeah the previous owner said that he felt larches in our area liked fun sun but he placed shadecloth over the roots in the summer to keep them cool. I have small section of shade cloth i will be doing that same thing with, though i am looking to suspend it above the surface to encourage more airflow than it looks like it was getting.

 

[Rivka]

Well crap, at least i know what the first thing i need to fix is:
Just noticed that the pot has a single drain hole and its 2in up on the side, it used to be one of those crappy self watering planters

I know i shouldn’t repot, but something has to change asap. Maybe just pulling it in one clump (it does come out all together) and redrilling the pot? I don't know if it will survive drilling it is pretty uv damaged. Maybe go find something the same shape or just a tad bigger and slip it into a new bot without touching roots?
what the hell what he thinking?? Honeslty im shocked at how many fresh roots it has considering how high the perched water table was above and beyond the cesspool at the bottom.

Oh and it has ants, i hate ants

 

[Cadillactaste]

The previous owner had it for twenty years...you say.

It does not need repotting as much as a good weeding, which I have already started on. It was last repotted in 2017, so I will at least lift it near the end of dormancy next winter and take stock of things. I’m told as much as half of the pot volume may be this single black volcanic rock, so it should be interesting.

So a healthy tree in this pot since 2017...But, now needs repotted out of season. I've got nothing...but wish you the best.

 

[Rivka]

The previous owner had it for twenty years...you say.

So a healthy tree in this pot since 2017...But, now needs repotted out of season. I've got nothing...but wish you the best.

I have no idea why you even bother to type this reply out. Must really like to hear yourself talk.

But since you did, here is my reply.
-at this point I honestly dont trust his info, so “2017” may be a pretty loose date frankly
- it likely was a lot healthier before repotting and has only made it this long because this is a very deep pot and most of its roots are likely gathered at the top since he saidcit used to be in a much shallower pot.
- i very much know to avoid traditional repotting this time of year, the two options i was tossing around are far far short of that and totally aimed at near zero root disturbance. But since 8 mor months of a pot with ridiculous drainage will likely risk killing it, so way to get it drainage is the lessor of two evils.