Identifying veins?

[willhopper]

I’ve been struggling with the “live vein” comments bonsai artists have been making on some of the videos I’ve been watching. Sometimes I’ve heard them say that they are identifying the live vein before creating deadwood or shari. I was under the impression at first that there were veins that remained alive along the tree’s trunk and it was my job to identify which were alive and which were dead. But that didn’t seem right because people choose certain trouble branches to jin, etc., and they are alive when they start.

So, do we merely create these veins by keeping a large enough portion of the bark and cambium intact from nubari?

 

[sorce]

Heard the quickest way to be able to identify veins real well is to start abusing prescription medications!

Bout six months after you can no longer afford your prescription, or your insurance decides it doesn't cover it anymore, you'll be able to identify the veins between your toes!

Lol...or not!

Imagine a candy cane except it has two main branches coming off the red and white at the top....
If you cut one of the stripes horizontally, the branch and roots it was attached to will die.

Couple years after the live part grows, you'll be identifying that twisted around live vein.

Most young trees are entirely live veins.

To not cut thru the whole stripe, create thin patches first, small enough to not kill entire parts of the tree..
And connect them over time.

I think BVF has a Blog post on it.
Kathy Shaner method.

Pics?

Sorce

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Imagine a big tree with big branches. When they are old enough the vein will be swollen and make it obvious what vein is feeding the branch. Cut off the branch will create a shari in a few years (give it time for the bark to fall off). When you have a younger tree it is less obvious. Most young trees will not create a shari but will use the live vein to supply the surviving branches with some extra water. It depends also from the species. For a juniper it is 'normal' that there is a connection between a certain root with a certain branch. With a pine, most often there is not that direct link. So when thinking the other way around, you can cut back 1/3 of the cambium of a trunk on a young juniper and it will not die. Each year you can cut back more. Just keep it logical and keep connection beween the top and the roots. With older plants you must be a bit more careful. Clean the trunk and look for places where the trunk is more swollen. Most of the time the veins follow a logical path. Removing a big branch will stop the development of the vein and the bark might start to fissure, but not always. For yew they don't like to be told where the vein needs to run. They are less flexible (on that point). It goes good for a few years, after that the branch goes weak and ...

What tree are we talking about?

For creating, take a branch of, make a small shari following the most logical path. Make it larger year after year. Be creative.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Depending on the age of the tree, as sorce mentioned; live veins become more pronounced with age. When a juniper is young, you can establish those live veins yourself by creating dead spots on the trunk, forcing the tree to redirect th flow through the remaining live tissue.
Here is a thread that discusses and demonstrates creating those live veins, slowly over a few years:
https://bonsainut.com/threads/shimpaku-project.4389/
This is an example of fairly pronounced live veins, where the deadwood areas were established a long time ago, and the living sections are obvious:

 

[willhopper]

Imagine a big tree with big branches. When they are old enough the vein will be swollen and make it obvious what vein is feeding the branch. Cut off the branch will create a shari in a few years (give it time for the bark to fall off). When you have a younger tree it is less obvious. Most young trees will not create a shari but will use the live vein to supply the surviving branches with some extra water. It depends also from the species. For a juniper it is 'normal' that there is a connection between a certain root with a certain branch. With a pine, most often there is not that direct link. So when thinking the other way around, you can cut back 1/3 of the cambium of a trunk on a young juniper and it will not die. Each year you can cut back more. Just keep it logical and keep connection beween the top and the roots. With older plants you must be a bit more careful. Clean the trunk and look for places where the trunk is more swollen. Most of the time the veins follow a logical path. Removing a big branch will stop the development of the vein and the bark might start to fissure, but not always. For yew they don't like to be told where the vein needs to run. They are less flexible (on that point). It goes good for a few years, after that the branch goes weak and ...

What tree are we talking about?

For creating, take a branch of, make a small shari following the most logical path. Make it larger year after year. Be creative.

Thanks everyone. I really wasn’t talking about any particular tree, dirk, just the process. So we do dictate sometimes where the veins will thrive, begin, etc. Fascinating.

 

[sorce]

Fascinating

These moments are wonderful!

I can feel your improvement!

Sorce

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Thanks everyone. I really wasn’t talking about any particular tree, dirk, just the process. So we do dictate sometimes where the veins will thrive, begin, etc. Fascinating.

Yes, that is the nice and dangerous thing of a hobby like this. You keep finding new things to try.

 

[willhopper]

I’m really starting to get the bug. We had my club’s annual holiday party at my house and I got a beautiful cascading pot in the grab bag!

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Looking at some Japanese shohin imports and local developing trees recently discussing rapid trunk thickening techniques for pines. One technique on saplings would potentially produce the spiralled live vein(s).

It involved wrapping saplings tightly with wire and leaving it to grow into the tree with cambium rolling over it (effectively spiralling the live vein to the shape of the wire curve). We saw trees with the technique applied that were twice as thick as trees the same age!

Anyone know the structural reason that pines rarely lose branches when a root is cut but junipers do? There are loads of resin channels in pines that are lacking in Junipers. Maybe bigger rays? More parenchyma cells to shift nutrients and water more quickly (quicker to move the live vein and resupply the branch)? Is it something to do with porosity and nutrient pathways?

 

[0soyoung]

Anyone know the structural reason that pines rarely lose branches when a root is cut but junipers do? There are loads of resin channels in pines that are lacking in Junipers. Maybe bigger rays? More parenchyma cells to shift nutrients and water more quickly (quicker to move the live vein and resupply the branch)? Is it something to do with porosity and nutrient pathways?

I don't know if it is THE REASON, but it would have to do with how much lateral 'leakage' there is in the xylem. Cells have little pores or holes through the cell wall called plasmodesmata. Xylem lumens are just dead cellulose walls emptied of their contents. One lumen connects to the other through these pores. If these are predominantly to the lumen above/below and to the side, water and nutrients would spread out in the xylem as it moves upward. If they were strictly to the lumen above/below, the xylem would act as a series of parallel tubes and the root connection to a leaf would be quite strict.

So possibly pines have more lateral lumen connections and junipers more vertically oriented. The idea works for me (where the plasmodesmata appear would plausibly be under genetic control, etc.).

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Nice info 0soyoung! Appreciated!