Identification help Japanese maple seedlings

[River's Edge]

When i was in Japan visiting one of the public gardens i noticed a beautiful maple with tiny leaves in the garden. One of the workers noticed my interest in the seeds and gave me a handful. They are definitely a smaller dwarf type variety, the internodes average 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch apart on most of the seedlings and growth is pretty slow compared to regular maple varieties.
here are some pictures. For perspective the pots are 3 inch and the seedlings are entering growing season two. There is a fair amount of variation but the leaf shape and general color formation is pretty consistent.
Does anyone recognize this type?

 

[Deleted member 21616]

i’d say something along the lines of mikawa yatsubusa given the shape of the leaves, their serrated edges, and their proximity, but its hard to say without seeing the characteristic branch structuring

from what i understand nurseries in japan regularly propagate from seed and have done so for a long time, so this might be many generations away from any named cultivar (if it ever originated from a named cultivar at all)

 

[River's Edge]

i’d say something along the lines of mikawa yatsubusa given the shape of the leaves, their serrated edges, and their proximity, but its hard to say without seeing the characteristic branch structuring

from what i understand nurseries in japan regularly propagate from seed and have done so for a long time, so this might be many generations away from any named cultivar (if it ever originated from a named cultivar at all)

That sounds like a reasonable approximation. Thanks
There is some variation in the seeds that is for sure, the mature leaf color in the fall is bright yellow with red edges. The leaf size on the mature tree were approximately 2.5 cm.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

There is some variation in the seeds

that’s where all the fun is! any much variation in leaf size or internode lengths? My koto hime have leaves the size of a penny, i dream of it producing seeds with the same leaf size but with the usual palmatum growth habits!

i wish i had the space, i’d be planting thousands of seeds at a time!

I was told the main issue is that it takes 2-3-4 years to get a good look at what you’re growing, so you have to care for 1000 seedlings for 2-3-4 years before you can put 980 of them in the trash and keep the top 20 with interesting features.

 

[River's Edge]

that’s where all the fun is! any much variation in leaf size or internode lengths? My koto hime have leaves the size of a penny, i dream of it producing seeds with the same leaf size but with the usual palmatum growth habits!

i wish i had the space, i’d be planting thousands of seeds at a time!

I was told the main issue is that it takes 2-3-4 years to get a good look at what you’re growing, so you have to care for 1000 seedlings for 2-3-4 years before you can put 980 of them in the trash and keep the top 20 with interesting features.

Agreed, however something in my mind wants to express, i wonder now all those amazing Bonsai existed And were created before named cultivars became the in thing. As in how many of these named cultivars existed in the 1950's or even before i was born

 

[Deleted member 21616]

As in how many of these named cultivars existed in the 1950's or even before i was born

named palmatum cultivars go back to at least the 1600’s in japan. they began as regional differences, which were then further developed in gardens. Earliest known publication goes back to 1695 (kadan chikinsho by san-nojo hanado), and already in 1710 (zoho chikinsho by ibei ito) 36 varieties are named. By 1733, there are already 28 more names. By 1882, there are 202 named varieties collected by seigoro oka in kaede binran.

i wonder now all those amazing Bonsai existed And were created before named cultivars became the in thing

there’s a 180 yr old shishigashira at omiya that comes to mind, that brings us back to 1840ish. If somebody thought to use a cultivar back then, others must have been doing the same? I have not been to japan yet, but i would imagine that there must be many 150-200 year old maples that are identified as specific cultivars? i don't know. i haven't come across 300-400 yr old maple bonsai as we do conifers

a lot of people (myself included) really hate that naming has become “a thing”, especially in the american market. I’ll never look twice at a “iceman frost” or a “tiny dancer” or whatever names they come up with so they can TM it. Don't get me wrong, i'm obsessed with the variety, but I do think we've overdone it more than a little.

I'm convinced more of us should be playing The Palmatum Lottery. I have seen great things come of this hard work!

if i'm not mistaken, I think one of @MACH5 's trees was grown from an arakawa seed and ended up without the rough bark but with a bunch of great features? i've lost track of which one and it's not in my notes!

At bonsai ENR, a seed from weak growing matsumurae Aka Shigitatsu Sawa (first pic) gave rise to the tree in the second picture, one of the most vigorous trees in the greenhouse, with tight internodes, small leaves, and classic desirable palmatum habits!

But the names do help with buying/selling. the good with the bad

 

[River's Edge]

named palmatum cultivars go back to at least the 1600’s in japan. they began as regional differences, which were then further developed in gardens. Earliest known publication goes back to 1695 (kadan chikinsho by san-nojo hanado), and already in 1710 (zoho chikinsho by ibei ito) 36 varieties are named. By 1733, there are already 28 more names. By 1882, there are 202 named varieties collected by seigoro oka in kaede binran.



there’s a 180 yr old shishigashira at omiya that comes to mind, that brings us back to 1840ish. If somebody thought to use a cultivar back then, others must have been doing the same? I have not been to japan yet, but i would imagine that there must be many 150-200 year old maples that are identified as specific cultivars? i don't know. i haven't come across 300-400 yr old maple bonsai as we do conifers

a lot of people (myself included) really hate that naming has become “a thing”, especially in the american market. I’ll never look twice at a “iceman frost” or a “tiny dancer” or whatever names they come up with so they can TM it. Don't get me wrong, i'm obsessed with the variety, but I do think we've overdone it more than a little.

I'm convinced more of us should be playing The Palmatum Lottery. I have seen great things come of this hard work!

if i'm not mistaken, I think one of @MACH5 's trees was grown from an arakawa seed and ended up without the rough bark but with a bunch of great features? i've lost track of which one and it's not in my notes!

At bonsai ENR, a seed from weak growing matsumurae Aka Shigitatsu Sawa (first pic) gave rise to the tree in the second picture, one of the most vigorous trees in the greenhouse, with tight internodes, small leaves, and classic desirable palmatum habits!

But the names do help with buying/selling. the good with the bad

So that begs the question?
What process in your mind constitutes a named cultivar? Is it at the point when a specific sport is only propagated by cutting from the parent plant, or tissue generation? Or was it when the nursery propogation noticed the popularity and labelled their district, location as the source. For example Mikawa! The best case i can recal is the marketing of Mikawa JBP seeds from a source in Oregon. Or the term Yatsubusa a characteristic!
The best is if the scientific nomenclature is strictly adhered to of course, but then how to further delineate minor variations of the same.
The historical dates you have mentioned for example, were these processes subject to the propogation control we expect from a named cultivar? Very impressive if that is the case!
Then there is the whole other question of reliability of labelling, production, distribution and sales. With the same item being sold under various labels or identifications.
Just in the past year i have experienced the purchase of specific named cultivars that were labelled and marketed incorrectly!
I agree that the dedicated research and hard work that results in specific strains deserves respect and recognition. Particularily if the result is protected by diligent process afterwards!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

By definition, a cultivar is a cultivated variety...clones made strictly by cuttings, grafting, layering, or tissue culture. If you started with seeds, they are seedlings, and they cannot technically be considered named cultivars. They may have great characteristics, and may or may not show their parents’ traits, but if you’re naming them by the book, the best you can do is seedling A. palmatum. However, the story is great, and it’s cool to have them straight from Japan. Hopefully some of them will exhibit the characteristics you liked in the parent tree.

 

[River's Edge]

By definition, a cultivar is a cultivated variety...clones made strictly by cuttings, grafting, layering, or tissue culture. If you started with seeds, they are seedlings, and they cannot technically be considered named cultivars. They may have great characteristics, and may or may not show their parents’ traits, but if you’re naming them by the book, the best you can do is seedling A. palmatum. However, the story is great, and it’s cool to have them straight from Japan. Hopefully some of them will exhibit the characteristics you liked in the parent tree.

Agree completely! Will be keeping an eye on the batch, one or two more years will reveal a number of changes and variations i am sure.

 

[MACH5]

if i'm not mistaken, I think one of @MACH5 's trees was grown from an arakawa seed and ended up without the rough bark but with a bunch of great features? i've lost track of which one and it's not in my notes!

Derek, it's maple #5 with the grafted second trunk. Very small and delicate buds and twigs with rather pronounced leaf indentations like arakawa but smaller size. Autumn color can range from scarlet red to yellow on a given year depending on light exposure and possibly other factors. Not sure if its worth propagating it but I did give an air layer to @garywood.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you started with seeds, they are seedlings, and they cannot technically be considered named cultivars. They may have great characteristics, and may or may not show their parents’ traits, but if you’re naming them by the book, the best you can do is seedling A. palmatum.

Japanese maple is specifically known for its genetic variability. It is one reason why there is such a breadth of cultivars out there. A handful of seeds is kinda like playing the Lotto - some will be very similar to the parent stock, some will have quite different characteristics.

Think positively! Perhaps one of your seeds is uniquely appealing! Grow it out, take numerous cuttings or graft scions, and create your own cultivar

 

[namnhi]

No comments other than agreed with what has been said. One quick question for my personal knowledge... It is ok to bring seeds from another country back into the US? Any seeds?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It is ok to bring seeds from another country back into the US? Any seeds?

The law says you need a phytoinspection certificate in the country of origin BEFORE you leave the country. If you just show up in the US with some random plant seeds, assume they will be confiscated and destroyed. I have no idea if you show up with Japanese maple seeds from a garden in Tokyo how they will respond.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@namnhi sometimes seeds are accidentally sprinkled among the styrofoam popcorn in the plastic-lined box of a pot you order from japan

accidents happen! and if luck is really on your side they are seeds from the palmatum cutivar you've been dying to find!

 

[namnhi]

The law says you need a phytoinspection certificate in the country of origin BEFORE you leave the country. If you just show up in the US with some random plant seeds, assume they will be confiscated and destroyed. I have no idea if you show up with Japanese maple seeds from a garden in Tokyo how they will respond.

Most average Joe have no idea what phytoinspection cert. is. So it is still not legal to just bring seeds back without the phyto cert.. as I have always had in mind.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Most average Joe have no idea what phytoinspection cert. is. So it is still not legal to just bring seeds back without the phyto cert.. as I have always had in mind.

If you visit a nursery that regularly deals with tourists, they can sometimes have seeds for the export market. These seed packets will be pre-inspected and approved and have stamps on the packaging, so you won't have to deal with getting a separate inspection.

Seeds are much easier than ANYTHING with dirt. Dirt is a major no-no; even dirt on your shoes is a potential problem, which is why the customs forms ask if you have recently visited a farm or agricultural area.

 

[River's Edge]

No comments other than agreed with what has been said. One quick question for my personal knowledge... It is ok to bring seeds from another country back into the US? Any seeds?

I am not familiar with USDA regulations in that regard, I do know that many business's sell seeds that originate outside of the USA. I am more familiar with CFIA regulations in Canada. Some species seed is permitted from several countries without a permit, some species of seed cannot be imported from any country, and some countries are excluded as a source of seed. For all intents and purposes, the importer must research the specific type of seed and the source before knowing what is or is not required! Maple seed is one of the types with lesser restrictions for import if it comes from one of four specific countries. When one files for an import permit here in Canada it is either approved with attached conditions, not approved, or one is told that in those circumstances it is not required! For Canadians this is the safest route to take as you end up with written direction! Very handy at the entry point if the officer of the day is not familiar with all the regulations.