I may have chosen the wrong front on this Pro nana!

[edprocoat]

I decided to trim this down a bunch and remove a big branch that sort of stuck up looking out of place to me, I wired a few branches to open up the the foliage and show the jinned branch I removed and chose this for the front side.

PRONANA2 by edsnapshot, on Flickr

Then I look at the pictures now an think maybe I like the back better as the front, what do you think?

PRONANBACK by edsnapshot, on Flickr

ed

 

[bonsai barry]

They look a lot alike to me except mirror image. The design concept seems very similar in both cases. It would depend on the branch structure which is not visible in either photo. That being said, the second photo seems a little more natural looking.

 

[Bonsaiforlife]

I would wire every single branch and see what you come up with, the wire you are using looks too small. You will have alot more control and will be able to do more with the tree if you wire everything. But it looks recently repotted so maybe wait awhile, but then again its a juniper so who knows.

 

[edprocoat]

They look a lot alike to me except mirror image. The design concept seems very similar in both cases. It would depend on the branch structure which is not visible in either photo. That being said, the second photo seems a little more natural looking.

Yes, I was thinking the "back" looked more natural to me too. I wanted to show the small bit of deadwood/bare wood on the front that is why I opened it up and removed the extra branch, I guess I could wait and see how its filling out first as it has tons of fine growth and a bunch of little cones growing on it, so the front or back would not make much of a difference till then.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

I would wire every single branch and see what you come up with, the wire you are using looks too small. You will have alot more control and will be able to do more with the tree if you wire everything. But it looks recently repotted so maybe wait awhile, but then again its a juniper so who knows.

The black is aquarium gravel laid there to match the trunk when wet, the white stuff is fertilizer. I did not want to wire it too much as the little cones fall off easily and they look so much like pine cones it gives it the feeling of a pine tree when you see it in person. This Pron nana gets a ton of them in the spring and I lost a lot wiring the one side already.

Little "pine cones"

PROCONES by edsnapshot, on Flickr

edit / : The cones produce little green berries, not much to look at so I generally remove them when they appear so the plant does not waste much energy on them.

ed

 

[Kiani]

Isn't that a san jose juniper? It has both the softer round foliage of a shimpaku and the sharp pointy ones of a porcumbens nana.

And yes, the back makes a better front

 

[edprocoat]

Isn't that a san jose juniper? It has both the softer round foliage of a shimpaku and the sharp pointy ones of a porcumbens nana.

And yes, the back makes a better front

Well, I bought six of these as whips almost nine years ago now from a bonsai nursery in Fl. They were identified as Procumbens Nana, they have the gnarly bark a P.nana gets with age, and look like every P. nana I have ever seen. I have never seen a P. nana with spiky needles, many other varities of juniper display that trait, especially upright ones like blue point and parsonis, they actually hurt. Overall P. Nana seems to have a soft enough foliage and new growth, which is what you are looking at as its spring time and is is very soft until it opens. Procumbens form the little pine cones which turn to green berries with age, I do not know of any other juniper that has these, at least ones that I have seen or own through the years. Of course with all the sports or cultivars of junipers maybe these grown in Fl. have different traits than those from other areas, who knows.

Out of my six whips, two were fused to make a twin trunk tree I posted here, this one I grew to look slanted, I have another one that I grew as an informal upright that just does not cooperate with me, bar branching is its trait as well as I can not seem to figure how to style it convincingly as it will not grow branches where I want them, the other two I tried to fuse and they died. The "back" does make a better front and dammit I cut away a branch to create a jin and now it will be on the back, also I wired the "front" to show off the branches more which is now moot. At least I can always turn it around if I change my mind or it changes my mind for me.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

Just an update on this tree. The front? side as it is now that I removed a branch, well actually the wind blowing a chair decided that for me.

Procum by edsnapshot, on Flickr

The Back? it has filled out nicely despite all the weird assed weather we have been getting here in Central Ohio!

Probak by edsnapshot, on Flickr

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

Just my opinion, that with two dollars may get you a cup of coffee, but you should consider reducing the mass of the top. The top or your tree is way too bulky for the weight of your trunk. The way the tree is designed now makes it look like it is ready to fall over. You also need to plant the tree more in the center of the pot slightly off center depending on your final choice of front. I would also plant the tree at a slightly more acute an angle so that the relationship between the top and the trunk do not look so much at a right angle.

A word of caution: Procumbens Junipers at first seem very flexible but do not be deceived, the joints between branches and those larger elements they are attached to have a tendency to split easily and without warning; they just seem to let go like a wet paper bag that just suddenly has the bottom fall out. I have found that if the wire approaches the branch to be wired from the top rather than the bottom there is a better chance the branch joint will not slip.

 

[edprocoat]

Just my opinion, that with two dollars may get you a cup of coffee, but you should consider reducing the mass of the top. The top or your tree is way too bulky for the weight of your trunk. The way the tree is designed now makes it look like it is ready to fall over. You also need to plant the tree more in the center of the pot slightly off center depending on your final choice of front. I would also plant the tree at a slightly more acute an angle so that the relationship between the top and the trunk do not look so much at a right angle.

A word of caution: Procumbens Junipers at first seem very flexible but do not be deceived, the joints between branches and those larger elements they are attached to have a tendency to split easily and without warning; they just seem to let go like a wet paper bag that just suddenly has the bottom fall out. I have found that if the wire approaches the branch to be wired from the top rather than the bottom there is a better chance the branch joint will not slip.

Yes I have found this to be very true, bending a branch is tortorous as you have to worry when it will snap off! So you are saying wire it from the top of the branch towrds the joint and it works better? I will try this as I have lost several nice branches over the years, if they do not totally break I wire them with either light wire of sisal twine when i have it and they will heal back, but they usually either break off or damage enough of the bark that they die off anyway.
Thanks for the tip!

ed

 

[JamesMay]

im about 92.3% sure thats not a p.nana. Foliage looks san jose-ish to me.



Thats the type of foliage my 2 nana's have.

 

[edprocoat]

im about 92.3% sure thats not a p.nana. Foliage looks san jose-ish to me.

View attachment 24924

Thats the type of foliage my 2 nana's have.

Ok, the place I bought them at years ago in Florida sold them as Procumbens Nana and he was a commercial grower/exporter, the P. Nana's I seen today in Lowes have the same type of foliage as mine do and they are right here in Ohio.

You are the second person from California to say the same thing ! I wonder if there is a slightly different cultivar of P. Nana out in California, or maybe the comedian Gallagher was right when he said " California is the land of fruit and nuts, everryone out there is either a fruit or a nut "

ed

 

[jkd2572]

I have multiple different junipers. Looks like my san Jose folliage. Does not really matter just my two cents......

 

[Vance Wood]

Yes I have found this to be very true, bending a branch is tortorous as you have to worry when it will snap off! So you are saying wire it from the top of the branch towrds the joint and it works better? I will try this as I have lost several nice branches over the years, if they do not totally break I wire them with either light wire of sisal twine when i have it and they will heal back, but they usually either break off or damage enough of the bark that they die off anyway.
Thanks for the tip!

ed

I can guarantee nothing but death and taxes but in my experience if the approach of your wire comes from above the branch understanding that usually you want to bend the branch down to achieve a more mature look, you have a better chance to not break the branch. What is really important is that the base of the branch is supported.

 

[edprocoat]

I have multiple different junipers. Looks like my san Jose folliage. Does not really matter just my two cents......

Ok, then what you are saying is that you bought a mislabeled San jose which is really a P. Nana.

ed

 

[october]

Hi Ed.. I think what Vance was trying to say is that your juniper needs structure. There is no pattern or structure to it. It needs a main anchor branch, some clear side branches/ back branches and an apex. Right now, there is no apex. It kind of looks like a bush in a pot.

Also, concerning wiring, branches do break... however, there are proper wiring techniques that must be used for the health and look of the tree. Always wire something to something. If there is a branch on one side and a branch a little further up the trunk on the other side. Wrap the wire around the trunk in the middle of the branches then wrap the wire around one branch and then to the other. Also, when wiring a branch down, you start the first coil right where the branch eminates from the trunk and you start the wire over the top of the branch. To wire a branch up, you start the first coil of wire undrerneath the branch. Failure to do so can leave scars, breaks, bark stripping and a general displeasing result.

There should be some online lessons on wiring. They are essential to do bonsai

Rob

 

[edprocoat]

Uh thanks October, I have been succesfully wiring for about 40 years now, but I appreciate the sentiment. The fact that Vanc mentioned is that Procumbens Nana do break easily at the branch joints, even 1/2 caliper branches, or should I say especially thicker branches will bust with teh slightest pressure when trying to either spread them or bend against the flow of the branch, like bending down a branch that is growing up or off another upward growing branch. I have grown this tree to be slanted, like a tree I know that is on a ledge and the land caused it to lean as if it were falling off the ledge, yet the prevailing wind has formed the branches back the other way that is expressly the reason I have it near the end of the pot, I would prefer it on a rock but I am not good at maintaining or growing on rocks. I like the tree and the way I have it designed, but I appreciate your input.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

James May, I was looking again at your picture of your P. Nana, its hard to see the foliage well but it looks like most the foliage on mine except the younger stuff, is it soft as mine is or prickly? The reason I ask is I also have a Green Mound Procumbens, which has the smooth bark like yours seems to have in the picture, Procumbens Nana has rough bark as they constantly back bud on the trunk and branches leaving little bumps and notches where you remove it. Also Green Mound Procumbens has more a brown color bark where Procumbens Nana has a darker bark which actually looks black when its wet. I know there are 4 cultivars of it I commonly see, Procumbens Nana, Green Mound Procumbens, Bonin Isles Procumbens, and J. Procumbens Variegata. possibly there are more but those are the ones I find most often, and usually, mostly in Florida.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

Uh thanks October, I have been succesfully wiring for about 40 years now, but I appreciate the sentiment. The fact that Vanc mentioned is that Procumbens Nana do break easily at the branch joints, even 1/2 caliper branches, or should I say especially thicker branches will bust with teh slightest pressure when trying to either spread them or bend against the flow of the branch, like bending down a branch that is growing up or off another upward growing branch. I have grown this tree to be slanted, like a tree I know that is on a ledge and the land caused it to lean as if it were falling off the ledge, yet the prevailing wind has formed the branches back the other way that is expressly the reason I have it near the end of the pot, I would prefer it on a rock but I am not good at maintaining or growing on rocks. I like the tree and the way I have it designed, but I appreciate your input.

ed

I apologize to you for making the assumption from the original photo and the questions asked that you were a beginner. I don't as a rule check the background of the people posting, I can only respond to what I see and what I read. Again----I apologize.

 

[edprocoat]

I apologize to you for making the assumption from the original photo and the questions asked that you were a beginner. I don't as a rule check the background of the people posting, I can only respond to what I see and what I read. Again----I apologize.

Hey, no need to apologize. I have been keeping Bonsai since a child, I have never taken any classes, or learned from any masters nor even joined a club. I own one old soft cover book about Bonsai from Sunset publishing. I have never shown a Bonsai in a competition and I admittedly am nowhere near up to date on new techniques or innovations related to Bonsai. Until I found this site last fall I had no reference to Bonsai technique or what is new and to be honest I never dreamed there were so many accomplished artists in America or on the web. What I am saying is that compared to people such as yourself and many other learned and accomplished Bonsai artists who frequent this site I could be described as a long time Bonsai novice.

One question about the comment you made on removing the top and creating an apex, I plan on opening up the top as I wanted a windswept appearance on this tree, I do not like the crackerbox, or common look of seperate foliage pads. This tree has some strong branches growing horizontally from left to right looking at the side I planned as the front. I hate to cut this main branch yet, although I have tossed the idea around for the last two years of doing just that and jinning the branch. You said to plant it at a more acute angle, did you mean leaning more or straighter up, I wanted it leaning a tad more anyway is why I ask, I have been waiting for the roots to develop before moving it as when I lean it more I will have more roots above ground which will hopefully be able to survive.

I will post a picture under the canopy if you or anyone else had any suggections they are greatly appreciated.

ed