I know I'm not supposed to touch my <2mo old yamadoris' growth but...

[twisted trees]

Murky info at best. Let it grow unhindered all year is the best advice though. Get some more trees to occupy your time so you will forget about this one for a season. Keep in mind in your thinking on bogies that they are vines which means shoots tend to extend to great lengths without pushing inner buds and generally survive on just a few main roots.

 

[SU2]

I think his point is that there is nothing quick about bonsai...and is more in reference to pinching too soon.

Ah I got it I've hardly pinched it (iirc I've only pinched 2 shoots, both in areas where there was a lack of other shoots ie I was thinking that forcing the 1 shoot to effectively turn into 4 shoots was a good idea for that spot), 95% of the intervention has been the manipulation of the shoots leaving the trunk, controlling which direction they go and the angle they leave the trunk from

I get nothing is "quick" in bonsai (though it's certainly relative and bougies are fast), but what he was referring to wasn't even a 'grow fast' idea it was a 'shape/guide it while it's young & supple' idea, something I've still yet to see good advice against! For instance, on the shoots that have guy wires pulling them horizontally (or a rock hung on them for the same effect), the growth rate is still very fast, so much so that neglecting to move the ornaments is causing the shoots to have funky, wavy lines to them (a very neat effect IMO) so it's very difficult to imagine it's that detrimental to the plant!

 

[SU2]

Quit screwing around with them and just let them grow. Even hanging ornaments on the extending shoots will sap much needed energy from the tree. Just water and ferts this year, seriously.

"Even hanging ornaments" - I wasn't clear, hanging small rocks (and using small guy wires to pull branches down or in directions besides straight upward) is pretty much the entirety of my interventions here, I only pinched 2 (maybe 3) shoots and they were in areas w/o many shoots ie now I'll have more branches there, but % wise they're almost entirely un-pinched I'm mostly interested in adjusting their angles to help shape the branches (and influence the angle they leave the stump at, to make things easier later when taper comes into play!) and the shoots that have a 30g wire grabbing them to pull them left/right, or have a small rock dangling from their middle so they grow horizontally, they appear to be growing just as fast as everything else- any negative effects of these gentle interventions are certainly minimal if the plant isn't showing stress (unless it's just thriving and then suddenly stops? Haven't seen that before but anything's possible I guess!)

 

[SU2]

You are pushing it too hard and you will weaken it considerably with so much attention.

I should clarify, because what I've done is far milder than I think it's coming across - though I was mulling-over pinching *many* of the tips, so far I've only pinched a small amount (maybe 2 or 3, certainly not over 4!!) because, regardless of anything, I wanted to see how they'd respond and that takes longer than seeing how they respond to the ornaments & guy-wires. The latter is something I've done much more of, but it's very gentle it doesn't take much to just nudge a shoot in a different direction, the shoots I've been directing the angles of are growing just as fast as the rest - many of the bases of my eventual primary bases are being formed right now as this stump re-builds itself, if small pressure from a 30g wire nudging a shoot where it'd look better is something that doesn't slow that shoot down, I can't see good reason not to do it. Once some weeks/a month has gone by, the bases of all these fresh shoots will have lignified and all the ornaments and guy-wires removed, at which point I'd be able to just let it grow-out in a greatly-improved way since got to choose the initial lines coming out of them! Sure, I could do this later by wiring with copper, but if I can achieve the same effect far easier right now, w/o any significant growth reductions, it seems a simple choice.

As for the sun, you had better get some sort of sunshade. Those leaves are already sun scorched. This will only get worse as the weather gets hotter.

I'm in zone 9a/9b (tampa FL area), I've gotta say I don't see these as sun-scorched...I've got well-established bougies and the growth on the yamadoris pictured in this thread is of the same rough quality as fresh growth on my established bougies, the texture and color match pretty well. Am attaching a picture to show a shoot that's got both heavy light (it's one of the least-shaded sections of either plant) and a rock ornament, it's still looking healthy to my eyes and is still growing at what seems to be the same rate as before / as the other shoots:

 

[SU2]

[edit- NM! Don't see option to delete a post!]

 

[SU2]

Be aware that big stumps like this can contain a lot of stored energy and can fool you. The growth you are getting may be the tree running on fumes. If it is not also growing roots you will soon run out of gas.

Well that's just terrifying! Have you ever heard any anecdotes about that happening with bougies? If I had to name the specie I thought was the most likely to handle such yamadori collection, I'd say bougies (but I'm hardly experienced enough to compare much else), I've seen sooo many done successfully and seldom read about problems. Would be very disappointing for them to suddenly go south like that!

 

[SU2]

This is very true!
Happened to me with a large stump that I tried to pot....shot out 35 new shoots to about 6-8 leaves each....then croaked.

Haha that's funny that's almost *exactly* where mine is now (large stump, ~35 shoots with ~6-8 leaves apiece) - can only imagine how you felt when it croaked! Sorry to hear Could you elaborate a bit on what happened, like was it fast or slow?

Someone here said that they had a stump recovering for 3 years, then it crapped out, when unpotted, it had not grown a single root.

That sounds bogus, not saying I think you are misrepresenting I think they are - it's hard to imagine a tree making 3yrs on stored energy (which'd be the case if it hadn't put out new roots - unless of course it had original roots that were active yet, for some reason, went 3yrs w/o growing) Story sounds implausible but maybe I'm missing something!

 

[SU2]

If this were anything but bougainvillea, I'd offer up that caution also. Bougainvillea roots pretty darn easily, even huge stumps. I don't think roots are a problem IF the top growth is left alone for a while.
http://wigertsbonsai.com/bougainvillea-development/

Thank you VERY much for that post!! I was reading those and thinking "sure maybe with other plants, but not with a bougie!!", very nice to hear a reassurance re this particular specie! That's a huge part of the appeal to me, bougies are the best trees I own (and some of my favorite on the planet) they are just so damn tough and grow so fast - the thorns & flowers put it over the top for me Thanks for the article, been a while since I saw that url and have been meaning to spend a bit reading bougie-specific pieces!

(actually I'm reallly not worried anymore now that I just remembered when I was putting pine-bark nuggets in the top ~1" of soil due to moisture retention issues, I was moving diatomite granules and accidentally ripped a chunk of fibrous, fresh white roots - it wasn't anything too bad but I know that thing is certainly growing roots freely in its box!!)

 

[Bonsai Nut]

That sounds bogus, not saying I think you are misrepresenting I think they are - it's hard to imagine a tree making 3yrs on stored energy (which'd be the case if it hadn't put out new roots - unless of course it had original roots that were active yet, for some reason, went 3yrs w/o growing) Story sounds implausible but maybe I'm missing something!

There is a well-documented case in the book "The Bonsai Art of Kimura" where they received an expensive juniper yamadori that was looking weak, and when they went to check the roots it had not a single live root. There was only one live foliage mass and it was well up the trunk. So what they did was invert the tree (placing the old dead roots up in the air), place the foliage mass in contact with the ground, mist like crazy and pray. The tree sprouted new roots and lived.

 

[Anthony]

@SU2 ,

here is a pink pixie, that was dug out and allowed to recover.
From this point, shoots were allowed to extend 18 inches and then cut back to 1 or 2 leaves.
Then another 18 inches and so on repeatedly.
This began the development of the branchlets.

It will probably never be a Bonsai because it would be incredibly heavy to move.
So perhaps a specimen plant is pot.

Presently in flower, and then back to training.
Good Luck with yours.
Good Day
Anthony


Soil is 5 mm inorganic with 30 % aged compost by volume.

 

[rockm]

Thank you VERY much for that post!! I was reading those and thinking "sure maybe with other plants, but not with a bougie!!", very nice to hear a reassurance re this particular specie! That's a huge part of the appeal to me, bougies are the best trees I own (and some of my favorite on the planet) they are just so damn tough and grow so fast - the thorns & flowers put it over the top for me Thanks for the article, been a while since I saw that url and have been meaning to spend a bit reading bougie-specific pieces!

(actually I'm reallly not worried anymore now that I just remembered when I was putting pine-bark nuggets in the top ~1" of soil due to moisture retention issues, I was moving diatomite granules and accidentally ripped a chunk of fibrous, fresh white roots - it wasn't anything too bad but I know that thing is certainly growing roots freely in its box!!)

I and others have given you sound advice. If you choose to ignore it, that's up to you. Happens a lot here as some folks aren't really looking for advice as much as they are seeking confirmation that what they're doing is right. What you're doing isn't great horticultural or bonsai practice.

FWIW, trunks WILL sprout and even grow new shoots out of inertia with no roots. I've had it happen several times on a very old elm and a 200 year old boxwood. Both those plants pushed six inches of new shoots and leaves from their trunks that lasted for a while. In the case of the boxwood, the leaves and shoots stayed green and growing through two years, including two winters. They collapsed the third spring. Took the plant (which was as big around as my leg) out of the pot and looked at the roots. There were NO new roots there.

As you say bougies are vigorous, so they might not be as susceptible, BUT since they are so vigorously they ALSO have a lot of inertia from that vigor, so its not out of the realm of possibility that's what's happening here.

Also, since this is a vine, it will take a long time for it to produce a woody leader or bases for branching. I grow wisteria, (Also an extremely vigorous tough vine). New shoots that are to become branches on wisteria are let grow UNHINDRED for a long time Then pruned back severely. This process is the only way for them to make any meaningful branches. Repeated pruning too early prevents those shoots from lignifying (turning to wood).

Additionally, wisteria tend to lose very large portions of their trunks from root loss up to three years after collection. Cutting their roots robs sections of their trunks of nutrients. Those die off and rot.it' New growth is allowed to grow untouched to help prevent that.

Overestimating the plant is a dangerous thing to do if you value it. Futzing around with newly collected trees is about the worst thing your can do.

 

[just.wing.it]

sounds bogus,

Don't shoot the messenger!
I wish I could remember who told me that....

 

[LanceMac10]

Don't shoot the messenger!
I wish I could remember who told me that....

It was your voice echoing down the alley......goooood morning Baltimore!!!!

 

[SU2]

There is a well-documented case in the book "The Bonsai Art of Kimura" where they received an expensive juniper yamadori that was looking weak, and when they went to check the roots it had not a single live root. There was only one live foliage mass and it was well up the trunk. So what they did was invert the tree (placing the old dead roots up in the air), place the foliage mass in contact with the ground, mist like crazy and pray. The tree sprouted new roots and lived.

Firstly, thanks that was an interesting anecdote! Do you mean a full inversion or just on its side? If the little canopy wayy up the trunk was actually on the ground with the roots in the air, and new roots sprouted (from the canopy//ground intersection?), did the root mass start producing foliage? Am sooo wanting to see pictures of this!

I've always seen examples where there's a so much deadwood on a specimen between the roots and the canopy(ies) that I almost marvel at how well the bark does its thing! In this particular case though, how did they get to the conclusion that it'd been living on stored energy for 3yrs? That was the original context of this....it sounds like the tree went south and did have a dead root mass upon their acquisition, but it's a different thing to say it was in poor shape upon their receipt of it than to say that it'd gone 3yrs with no active root transport going on (astonishing both in the context of 'how could stored energy possibly equal 3yrs life?' and 'how did a 3-years-dead root-ball not smell from 10+ feet away?', even 'how did the plant remain upright without living roots?')

 

[SU2]

@SU2 ,

here is a pink pixie, that was dug out and allowed to recover.
From this point, shoots were allowed to extend 18 inches and then cut back to 1 or 2 leaves.
Then another 18 inches and so on repeatedly.
This began the development of the branchlets.

It will probably never be a Bonsai because it would be incredibly heavy to move.
So perhaps a specimen plant is pot.

Presently in flower, and then back to training.
Good Luck with yours.
Good Day
Anthony


Soil is 5 mm inorganic with 30 % aged compost by volume.

View attachment 146268

That's awesome thanks for sharing!! You wouldn't happen to have any larger photos would you? I like it, it's kind of similar to one of my two stumps, would really love to see a closer-up to see how the branched shoots look. I like the idea of getting more shoots (due to pinching) in areas that are light on growth, but for the majority of them I want thickness first & foremost so don't want to lose time pinching beyond what's wise just yet (which varies from 'nothing' to 'all of them at xyz height/leaves/etc), depending on source!)

I don't get why you don't think it can be a bonsai because of weight?! There's plenty of bonsai that are heavy as hell, just need to put a little thought into how you setup your containers (ie keep it in training boxes on casters, problem solved!) I just cannot wrap my head around 'too heavy for bonsai' since I see WAY more potential in the mid-larger sized bonsais than in smaller ones, there's tons of challenges in bonsai but moving a specimen shouldn't be a deal-breaker!

I and others have given you sound advice. If you choose to ignore it, that's up to you. Happens a lot here as some folks aren't really looking for advice as much as they are seeking confirmation that what they're doing is right. What you're doing isn't great horticultural or bonsai practice.

Wait do you not endorse that link to weigert's you'd posted up-thread? That page would lead me to think that this earlier pinching *is* ok, as well as other manipulations (they're using wire on supple shoots and pinching early in that link - because it's bougies I presume, which is why I'm thinking this plant skirts some of the general good-practice rules here.

Also, since this is a vine, it will take a long time for it to produce a woody leader or bases for branching. I grow wisteria, (Also an extremely vigorous tough vine). New shoots that are to become branches on wisteria are let grow UNHINDRED for a long time Then pruned back severely. This process is the only way for them to make any meaningful branches. Repeated pruning too early prevents those shoots from lignifying (turning to wood).

It is a really versatile vine, it can be grown like a tree too - I've already got lignification at the bases of my larger shoots and their bottom inches are getting quite dark I imagine the bases of all of these shoots will be lignified by summer's end. Am still gonna have that worry that it's momentum-growth but I know I have new roots (just not sure what their extent is), as I've poked into my soil trying to re-structure something and accidentally severed a few areas of fresh new roots (pure white, branching roots, very obviously new growth) Am really hoping for these to be rooting as well as they're vegging and I know only time will tell, but doing this to bougies in FL seems to work for many others (adamaskwhy, the wigerts, etc), as well as myself- I've got an area in my raised veggie beds that I keep as a cuttings-area for various things, I've got multiple bougie 'sticks' that I jammed in there (just multi-inch tall sticks from bougies, that were lignified but not thick bark, only ~5mm wide) last year and they've gone from sticks to mini-bushes, the new growht generated just couldn't possibly have been held in the tiny sticks as reserve energy so am hopeful!

Additionally, wisteria tend to lose very large portions of their trunks from root loss up to three years after collection. Cutting their roots robs sections of their trunks of nutrients. Those die off and rot.it' New growth is allowed to grow untouched to help prevent that.

To be sure I understand here, you mean that such a wisteria would've had less trunk die-off if it weren't for pinching? Because the pinching stops the auxin which stops the root growth?

Overestimating the plant is a dangerous thing to do if you value it. Futzing around with newly collected trees is about the worst thing your can do.

I don't want to over- or under-estimate the plant - based on the wigerts page you linked, this specie *is* ok with these things, unless I'm mis-reading something in it: http://wigertsbonsai.com/bougainvillea-development/ (btw thanks again for linking that, hadn't read it in ages and happy to have read it again now that I've got relevant specimen!)

I'm very surprised at how much faster they're growing now that they've 'established' some good vegetation, the growth rate is increasing I'm unsure if it's the weather or the stage of development but it's been great to see!

 

[rockm]

That's awesome thanks for sharing!! You wouldn't happen to have any larger photos would you? I like it, it's kind of similar to one of my two stumps, would really love to see a closer-up to see how the branched shoots look. I like the idea of getting more shoots (due to pinching) in areas that are light on growth, but for the majority of them I want thickness first & foremost so don't want to lose time pinching beyond what's wise just yet (which varies from 'nothing' to 'all of them at xyz height/leaves/etc), depending on source!)

I don't get why you don't think it can be a bonsai because of weight?! There's plenty of bonsai that are heavy as hell, just need to put a little thought into how you setup your containers (ie keep it in training boxes on casters, problem solved!) I just cannot wrap my head around 'too heavy for bonsai' since I see WAY more potential in the mid-larger sized bonsais than in smaller ones, there's tons of challenges in bonsai but moving a specimen shouldn't be a deal-breaker!






Wait do you not endorse that link to weigert's you'd posted up-thread? That page would lead me to think that this earlier pinching *is* ok, as well as other manipulations (they're using wire on supple shoots and pinching early in that link - because it's bougies I presume, which is why I'm thinking this plant skirts some of the general good-practice rules here.


It is a really versatile vine, it can be grown like a tree too - I've already got lignification at the bases of my larger shoots and their bottom inches are getting quite dark I imagine the bases of all of these shoots will be lignified by summer's end. Am still gonna have that worry that it's momentum-growth but I know I have new roots (just not sure what their extent is), as I've poked into my soil trying to re-structure something and accidentally severed a few areas of fresh new roots (pure white, branching roots, very obviously new growth) Am really hoping for these to be rooting as well as they're vegging and I know only time will tell, but doing this to bougies in FL seems to work for many others (adamaskwhy, the wigerts, etc), as well as myself- I've got an area in my raised veggie beds that I keep as a cuttings-area for various things, I've got multiple bougie 'sticks' that I jammed in there (just multi-inch tall sticks from bougies, that were lignified but not thick bark, only ~5mm wide) last year and they've gone from sticks to mini-bushes, the new growht generated just couldn't possibly have been held in the tiny sticks as reserve energy so am hopeful!



To be sure I understand here, you mean that such a wisteria would've had less trunk die-off if it weren't for pinching? Because the pinching stops the auxin which stops the root growth?



I don't want to over- or under-estimate the plant - based on the wigerts page you linked, this specie *is* ok with these things, unless I'm mis-reading something in it: http://wigertsbonsai.com/bougainvillea-development/ (btw thanks again for linking that, hadn't read it in ages and happy to have read it again now that I've got relevant specimen!)

I'm very surprised at how much faster they're growing now that they've 'established' some good vegetation, the growth rate is increasing I'm unsure if it's the weather or the stage of development but it's been great to see!

View attachment 147601 View attachment 147602

Like I said, you're free to ignore the advice people give you.

To clarify, I DON'T recommend you pinching anything, regardless of what Wigert's said. You don't seem to have all that much experience with this, so I'd advise erring on the side of caution. All that fussing and misplaced concern about ramification and branching isn't good. Constantly needing to "do something" with new trees is a big-- and common--beginner mistake. Do it at your own risk. Good for you if you don't mess things up.

Trunk dieback on wisteria is NOT because of pinching new growth. It is due to the traumatically severely reduced root mass directly after collection. Large trunks depend on large root systems with wisteria. Remove the roots, you lose portions of the trunk. Allowing new growth to go untouched can vastly increase the chances of the trunk NOT dieing back, as new growth on top means corresponding new roots beneath to support the trunk. That instability in the trunk can last several years with wisteria and all new growth is encouraged and allowed for a while.

 

[leatherback]

Remove the roots, you lose portions of the trunk. Allowing new growth to go untouched can vastly increase the chances of the trunk NOT dieing back, as new growth on top means corresponding new roots beneath to support the trunk. That instability in the trunk can last several years with wisteria and all new growth is encouraged and allowed for a while.

I should have known this. I collected a big wisteria, maybe 25 years old. Potted it. And a few weeks later it started growing. After the second growing season, around september, it started to peeter out. When I lifted it from the container, not a single roots had grown. I had very nice ramnification build in those two years, wiring & pinching every 2-4 weeks.

Just one of the main lessons I have learned the hard way. Tree one of ts have great energy reserves. This allows them to deal with the tremendous harm we do when digging them up and cutting them down. As a result, they spurt to life as soon as possible. BUT.. During that time they deplete the reserves. Allowing the plant to grow, and just have foliage without damaging again gives the plant time to rebuild the reserves and pass through potential bad times down the line.

Patience is really one of the key skills for bonsai.

 

[Saddler]

Even if the tree lives, what you are doing will probably end up costing you in the future when you dig up or even repot a less hardy specimen and say to yourself, "it worked the last time I did it" and kill the tree. It's just bad practice to do what you are doing.

On the other hand, this situation is a strong reason why ugly trees are good to experiment on. Learning what you shouldn't do to a tree....

Fortunately I learnt this same lesson on mediocre material. Between digging at the roots, hanging garbage off the branches (in my experience that is a branch killer on anything but a strong tree, I suspect the wind bouncing the weight around is what does it as a simple experiment I did showed) and not only not listening to advice from multiple people with proven experience in growing healthy trees, but essentially telling them they are wrong and you are right is certain to end this tree. I hope you get real lucky, the tree lives and you take some advice away from this for the next time.

 

[bonsaibp]

I wise man told me a long time ago- anything after but is bullshit.