how to tell the difference betwen a douglas fir and hemlock?

[marc206]

I have an older tree that I thought was a Doug fir. But now I'm second guessing myself. I thought only hemlocks had the white stamens on the underside of the needles. But Doug firs have them also. So how can I identify a bunch of these seedlings and what I thought to be a Doug fir?

 

[ABCarve]

One thing I noticed is that hemlock has a pointed needle and firs are more rounded on the end.

 

[marc206]

One thing I noticed is that hemlock has a pointed needle and firs are more rounded on the end.

Yes but Douglas firs are not true firs. Is there anyone that can chime in on my dilemma? The big reason is because I'm trying to figure out which type of soil I will use for what I thought top be Douglas fir seedlings

 

[dick benbow]

Hi marc,
Take a look at the way the needles come out of the branch. Firs will completely surround the branch. hemlock will tend to come out the sides and not top and bottom.

 

[wireme]

Doug firs do tend to have a more pointed tip than true firs, also new buds are very pointy. Hemlocks tend to have droopy new foliage, especially leader growth. Here's a pic of Doug for needles from one of my trees, do you have pics?

 

[wireme]

Another pic from a different Doug fir. There actually can be a fair bit of variation in the degree of pointyness of the needles.

 

[wireme]

Generally speaking dick is correct. Take a look at the photos I just posted Doug fir needles grow all around the branch. With hemlock it's a bit dependent on species, mountain hemlock needles encircle the branch more than western hemlock. Both species will have needles growing all around the branch on more immature twigs and foliage but once a western hemlock gets growing it will have needles clearly growing flat out from the branch.

 

[marc206]

Generally speaking dick is correct. Take a look at the photos I just posted Doug fir needles grow all around the branch. With hemlock it's a bit dependent on species, mountain hemlock needles encircle the branch more than western hemlock. Both species will have needles growing all around the branch on more immature twigs and foliage but once a western hemlock gets growing it will have needles clearly growing flat out from the branch.

OK they probably are Doug for then. Mountain hemlocks sort of have pointed needles. So I think they are dougys. I will post pictures shortly. Thanks guys.

 

[ghues]

OK they probably are Doug for then. Mountain hemlocks sort of have pointed needles. So I think they are dougys. I will post pictures shortly. Thanks guys.

FYI- WIKI = The leaves are needle-like, 5–23 mm long and 1.5–2 mm broad, strongly flattened in cross-section, with a finely serrated margin and a bluntly acute apex. They are mid to dark green above; the underside has two distinctive white bands of stomata with only a narrow green midrib between the bands. They are arranged spirally on the shoots but are twisted at the base to lie in two ranks on either side of the shoot.

For my hemlocks (mountain) I use more organics than I would for Doug Fir as they like a well drained soil.
Cheers Graham

 

[marc206]

FYI- WIKI = The leaves are needle-like, 5–23 mm long and 1.5–2 mm broad, strongly flattened in cross-section, with a finely serrated margin and a bluntly acute apex. They are mid to dark green above; the underside has two distinctive white bands of stomata with only a narrow green midrib between the bands. They are arranged spirally on the shoots but are twisted at the base to lie in two ranks on either side of the shoot.

For my hemlocks (mountain) I use more organics than I would for Doug Fir as they like a well drained soil.
Cheers Graham

Here are some pictures of the seedlings. Some of the seedlings the needles dont all grow sprirally around the branches. The reason why I cant distinguish is because the growth pattern doesn't compare to other doug growth patterns. But these were growing in between cotoneasters under pine trees. So I just answered my question right there why they didnt grow vertical.

 

[monza]

Some more reference from one of my ID books if it helps.

Douglas Fir

Needles are flat with a pointed tip. The upper surface is bright yellowish-green with a single groove down the centre; the lower surface is paler. The needles appear to stand out around the twig.

Mountain Hemlock

Needles are uniform in size, glossy, and yellow-green to deep bluish-green. They cover the branches densely on all sides or may be mostly upturned.

Western Hemlock

Needles are nearly flat, glossy, and soft; yellow to dark green on the upper surface and whitish underneath. The needles are unequal in length and produce feathery, flat sprays

 

[wireme]

Well, those definitely are Douglas fir seedlings. If you had some hemlocks seedling to compare side by each you would find the differences to be quite obvious.

 

[ghues]

0soyoung,
Looking at the photos of the seedlings in question they are D. fir -
Another feature to look at are the buds - D fir are much longer than Hw/Hm and pointed.....the buds on hemlock are small and round....and the pattern of leaves of hemlock is informal and have different lengths.
Cheers Graham

 

[Vance Wood]

I've just been asking for a pic of Doug fir foliage beside a pic of a Tsuga foliage. It seems no one is able or interested in supplying such.

... so it goes.

Cheers back at ya, Graham.

I don't think the problem is either one. However; most who would take on that project would, or could, find the same information on line that you could find for yourself if you took the time to look. Just pointing that out---------

Sometimes we tend to think that everyone else should be doing our homework for us, and I don't mean to be jumping on you, sometimes we all fall into that INTERNERNETlazzittess, where we expect others to pop up with information we can well provide for ourself.

 

[ghues]

I don't think the problem is either one. However; most who would take on that project would, or could, find the same information on line that you could find for yourself if you took the time to look. Just pointing that out---------

Sometimes we tend to think that everyone else should be doing our homework for us, and I don't mean to be jumping on you, sometimes we all fall into that INTERNERNETlazzittess, where we expect others to pop up with information we can well provide for ourself.

Osoyoung, I'm with Vance on this one..........a simple google and you'll find great photos of the two and be able to see the differences....in photos and description.......
Or....... why not post photos of the trees you are having trouble identifying which is Doug Fir and/or Hemlock. To me they are easy to tell apart but I've worked with both of them since the early 70's.

 

[ghues]

Marc206,
Now that you know they are D. Fir your question was in regards to soil types......for my hemlock I use more of an organic mix....I don't have any Dfir but if I did I'd use almost all inorganic like pumice, lava etc.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Graham

 

[marc206]

Yes I keep my hemlocks in 100% organic material. Straight from the mountains, mostly decomposed needles, leaves and pine bark. I actually put all the Dougy's inside a big training box together. Which will probably be left there till rootbound. Or like one user said now I can style in 20 years. LOL

 

[Vance Wood]

Yes I keep my hemlocks in 100% organic material. Straight from the mountains, mostly decomposed needles, leaves and pine bark. I actually put all the Dougy's inside a big training box together. Which will probably be left there till rootbound. Or like one user said now I can style in 20 years. LOL

If you put everything in a box with everything else it will be twenty years before you can style it. If you are going to harvest trees the least you can do is plant them in some sort of medium where they can be developed and used in a short amount of time.

 

[ghues]

Yes I keep my hemlocks in 100% organic material. Straight from the mountains, mostly decomposed needles, leaves and pine bark. I actually put all the Dougy's inside a big training box together. Which will probably be left there till rootbound. Or like one user said now I can style in 20 years. LOL

In regards to your hemi's being in 100% organic material..... I'd be careful as you need to make sure you don't overwater as this might bring on root rot.
I also add some of the humus into the soil mix from the collected hemlock as I believe that the mycorrhiza can be a benefit to tree however I do make sure that the medium drains well.
Cheers
Graham