How to Deal with Leggy Itoigawa Juniper

[leatherback]

but screwing up someone else' trees (and that someone is a person you respect enough to study under) is a great way to cement an idea in your head. Well, it was for me anyway.

lol.. In summer I was out of my own material and I worked on a huge scots pine of the nursery, trimming back. After 5 minutes I asked the owner to come and check as I was concerned I was taking off to much. He said: I'll show you what needs to be done. And he took another half a foot off the branch.

 

[sorce]

180 degree turn

Legit, I just got excited because Bjorn is talking about 180 degree flips.

Is it me, or does Bjorn look Swole! What's this due lifting? Lol!

Sorce

 

[Mayank]

Legit, I just got excited because Bjorn is talking about 180 degree flips.

Is it me, or does Bjorn look Swole! What's this due lifting? Lol!

Sorce

That video was pretty cool! I think you're right. He does look swole

 

[sorce]

He HAS been lifting that Imported Chinese Steel off of Pallets!

Sorce

 

[roberthu]

I've noticed a net gain in strength/vigor when removing foliage that's hanging below the branch. I'd also remove the first 1/8-1/4" of foliage in crotches (that you're not ultimately planning to reduce back to) for similar reasons. The loss of foliage (that's weak or in a poor location to soak up all those photons and convert them) forces ...or at least encourages the tree to replace it with higher quality foliage. That's usually in the form of, or leading towards, runners.

Ryan Neil talked about this during one of the Juniper videos. I have been thinking if it applies to all stages of bonsai because the tree he was working on was in the refinement stage. But he also said some of those foliage were consuming more energy than producing so I imagine that the technique applies to all development stage. Like you said, removing those foliage doesn’t only save energy, it also opens up the structure and allow more sunlight through, thus improve photosynthesis efficiency.

 

[AndyJ]

I would leave it alone until spring. Then, in the spring, go branch by branch and trim back runners, remove dead interior stuff, growth in the crotches of branches. Don’t remove more than 1/3 of the foliage. Each branch should look about like this when you’re finished:
View attachment 328428
Notice how each tuft remaining is approximately alternating from side to side:
View attachment 328430
Then you can wire each primary branch, and those secondary tufts into pads:
View attachment 328429
Here is a post you can check out on trimming back a juniper, also an Itoigawa:

Itoigawa Shimpaku summer work

I last wired this one 2 years ago, and the wire was digging in. It had also gotten fairly dense, and as is the case, weak areas got weaker, and strong areas got stronger. So this work was to remove…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Thanks for this @Brian Van Fleet I’ve been through and had a good read. Will you be keeping this thread up-to-date?

Another question on my tree, if I may? Can I do some work on the trunk now? Like cleaning the shari and lime-sulphuring it? I’ve wondered about widening the shari a bit too - What do you think? Can I do that now?

Thanks again. Andy

 

[leatherback]

Legit, I just got excited because Bjorn is talking about 180 degree flips.

Is it me, or does Bjorn look Swole! What's this due lifting? Lol!

Sorce

WTF



You just DO NOT drop a branch like that, without wraning, 8 seconds into your video!
OK, I need to have a sit-down and watch this video later.

He does look swole

Top Dog

 

[AndyJ]

Hell folks.

Spring again - and I’m back with my Itoigawa! The tips and advice from @Brian Van Fleet have produced some results - I’ve got internal shoots!!

So I’ve been all over the tree and reduced all the runners back and then thought “Dam, forgot the photos!” So please forgive me for starting here. I’m desperately hoping I can start cutting back to these internal shoots but will be guided from you.

Here’s a shot from each side, front first.

 

[AndyJ]

Going inside, here’s a closer look. Can I cut back to here?

 

[AndyJ]

Here’s another one. Can I cut all this growth off to the left and just keep what’s circled?

 

[AndyJ]

Another shoot inside:

 

[AndyJ]

And finally, a look at another cluster of branches. Can I cut back and just leave the one circled?

 

[AndyJ]

There are quite a few sprigs of juvenile growth that has scale foliage developing at the ends so I’m thinking this is a good sign? Can I ”nip” this growth after a few scale shoots to get it to start bushing?

I obviously don’t want a lot more juvenile growth but I guess it’s two steps forward one step back with this? I’m tired of looking at this straggly growth and want to get it neater!

Also, do you think this pot is too big? I kind of think it is and I’m hankering after putting it in something smaller. What do you think? And what style would you go for?

Thanks everyone!

 

[Adair M]

There are quite a few sprigs of juvenile growth that has scale foliage developing at the ends so I’m thinking this is a good sign? Can I ”nip” this growth after a few scale shoots to get it to start bushing?

I obviously don’t want a lot more juvenile growth but I guess it’s two steps forward one step back with this? I’m tired of looking at this straggly growth and want to get it neater!

Thanks everyone!

No! Don’t “nip” the tips! (“Nip” = “pinch”). Don’t pinch junipers!

You’re getting some juvenile foliage because the roots are growing strongly. You get scale foliage when the tree is more potbound. At this point, don’t worry about the juvi foliage. Your pot is oversized, allowing lots of root growth. And leggy foliage. When you have the structure you want, putting it in a smaller pot will constrain the roots, which will slow the growth. Creating shorter internodes and tighter tufts of foliage.

 

[River's Edge]

And finally, a look at another cluster of branches. Can I cut back and just leave the one circled?

View attachment 360199View attachment 360200

Cutting back to new shoots should occur when you are sure they are strong enough to keep the branch healthy! For me this is usually after two growing seasons with a new shoot that is at least 5 to 10 cm in length with strong mature scale foliage. That is however dependant on the tree sand branch size. I would think that is a good guideline for your situation based on the size of your tree.
One key to maintaining healthy growth is thinning and wiring.
I would suggest wiring out each branch for position and then the thinning aspect will be clearer to visualize.
This will help your new interior growth to strengthen and mature.

 

[Enfield Snapper]

Is it me, or does Bjorn look Swole! What's this due lifting? Lol!

He did a video fairly recently about how things have changed for him since the pandemic forced changes in business strategies. Anyway, he mentioned that with the lockdown he's been lifting weights 3-4 times a week. So that'll do it.

 

[AndyJ]

No! Don’t “nip” the tips! (“Nip” = “pinch”). Don’t pinch junipers!

You’re getting some juvenile foliage because the roots are growing strongly. You get scale foliage when the tree is more potbound. At this point, don’t worry about the juvi foliage. Your pot is oversized, allowing lots of root growth. And leggy foliage. When you have the structure you want, putting it in a smaller pot will constrain the roots, which will slow the growth. Creating shorter internodes and tighter tufts of foliage.

Thanks @Adair M - I hadn't appreciated the link between vigorous root growth and the production of juvenile foliage. I think I'd better get this repotted into something smaller to slow things down. How aggressive can you be with Juniper root reduction?

With reference to nipping / pinching Junipers - what I meant was I'd cut the tips out with scissors. Is this OK? Am I right in thinking pinching with fingers causes brown tips?

 

[AndyJ]

Cutting back to new shoots should occur when you are sure they are strong enough to keep the branch healthy! For me this is usually after two growing seasons with a new shoot that is at least 5 to 10 cm in length with strong mature scale foliage. That is however dependant on the tree sand branch size. I would think that is a good guideline for your situation based on the size of your tree.

My shoots are nowhere near 5 to 10cm Rivers so I'll leave the cutting back for at least another year.

One key to maintaining healthy growth is thinning and wiring.
I would suggest wiring out each branch for position and then the thinning aspect will be clearer to visualize.
This will help your new interior growth to strengthen and mature.

OK, I'll have a look at this. Presumably, I may end up wiring quite a few branches that I'll ultimately cut off?

 

[River's Edge]

My shoots are nowhere near 5 to 10cm Rivers so I'll leave the cutting back for at least another year.



OK, I'll have a look at this. Presumably, I may end up wiring quite a few branches that I'll ultimately cut off?

Yes that is common, not all wiring is for form, some is specifically for developmental goals such as strengthening or promoting interior growth! Sometimes it performs a secondary objective of structural foundation for pad formation.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks @Adair M - I hadn't appreciated the link between vigorous root growth and the production of juvenile foliage. I think I'd better get this repotted into something smaller to slow things down. How aggressive can you be with Juniper root reduction?

With reference to nipping / pinching Junipers - what I meant was I'd cut the tips out with scissors. Is this OK? Am I right in thinking pinching with fingers causes brown tips?

Don’t cut the tips!

You can “cut back” the runners. You cut so that there is a new leader at the point of the cut back. Never shorten a needle leaving any green. If you need to shorten, remove the whole needle. It doesnt matter whether you use scissors or fingers. Don’t truncate a needle. If it’s too long cut it back to brown wood.