How to create large black pines?

Anthony said:
@Adair M ,
Sifu,

what you see me commenting on is what is happening.

So, at 4 years, in a 10 x 3 [ 2.5 inch ] deep container, the trees are hitting 1 inch.
If the tree then grows 2 more branches with that capacity, we will hit a 3 inch trunk.
A 3 inch trunk for us is a 15 to 18 inch tall tree.
That is normally as big as is grown down here because of the weight factor.

This year in a bigger pot, I will let you know visually how it went.

I am not sure 3 to 15/18 inches is shohin ?

Additionally the lower section, as you can see in the image above, is covered in
buds, so many choices.

Thus far no problems.

Adding on branchlets would begin x year later.

BY the way this is -------------------- Bonsai Today 12, page 19, and we are hybridisng
the comments on page 31.

We are checking the age - 5 years on page 26. and trunk size 3".

If we hit it, You have to River Dance. Okay :):eek:
Thanks for responding.
Merry Christmas,
Anthony

* If you see no comments on Surface Roots, we got that on the first tree
naturally.
Last stages, branchlets and the elusive shortened needles.
Stayeth tuned.
Click to expand...
Shohin is 8 inches or less from rim of pot to top of foliage.

And we are talking about JBP.
 
Sifu,

agreed, but we are using the guideline of 1 inch trunk to 5/ 6 inch of height.
thus 3 inch trunk equals 15 /18 inches of height [ or width ]

And yes this J.B.Pines.

Wouldn't know until 8 to 10 years what the trunk will age to.
Thanks for responding.
Anthony
 
Last edited:
Why that guideline? Why the 6:1 ratio of height to trunk?

Doing so would limit your Shohin JBP (8 inches tall) to about 1 1/4 inch. Which, honestly, isn’t very impressive. With Shohin, and remember, that article was about how to create Shohin JBP, it’s far more impressive to have a 3 inch trunk girth on an 8 inch tall tree. AND, be able to fit into a tiny shohin pot!

That’s what the colander does. Keeps the tree’s roots active close to the trunk, rather than circling around a pot.
 
Anthony said:
@Adair M ,
Sifu,

what you see me commenting on is what is happening.

So, at 4 years, in a 10 x 3 [ 2.5 inch ] deep container, the trees are hitting 1 inch.
If the tree then grows 2 more branches with that capacity, we will hit a 3 inch trunk.
A 3 inch trunk for us is a 15 to 18 inch tall tree.
That is normally as big as is grown down here because of the weight factor.

This year in a bigger pot, I will let you know visually how it went.

I am not sure 3 to 15/18 inches is shohin ?

Additionally the lower section, as you can see in the image above, is covered in
buds, so many choices.

Thus far no problems.

Adding on branchlets would begin x year later.

BY the way this is -------------------- Bonsai Today 12, page 19, and we are hybridisng
the comments on page 31.

We are checking the age - 5 years on page 26. and trunk size 3".

If we hit it, You have to River Dance. Okay :):eek:
Thanks for responding.
Merry Christmas,
Anthony

* If you see no comments on Surface Roots, we got that on the first tree
naturally.
Last stages, branchlets and the elusive shortened needles.
Stayeth tuned.
Click to expand...
Anthony
just to add to your notes.
JBP germinated in January 2015 indoors, so they have completed 3 growing seasons at this point. Trunk diameter 7/8 to 1 inch. They were stem cut for radial root development @ approximately 60 days, transferred to 4 inch pots at that time. Moved to 9 inch colandars in year two, trunks wired and set in the grow beds for root escapement. Seeds were obtained through Sheffields, high germination rate. End of year two the apex was cut off to encourage lower branching! That worked, some trees better than others. New apex selected and wired up. Whorls being managed to control knuckles and provide future alternatives for sacrifice. Lower branching below 18 inches left alone at this point.
This group has surpassed the previous planting of JBP and JRP that were not radially cut and germinated the previous year. All other factors were the same.It is possible that the others may catch up in time. It is also possible that the seed quality was not the same as they were differrent sources. The current crop ( germinated january 2016) seed from trip to Japan obtained from grower is progressing well using the same process.
My working hypothesis is that the trimming of the escapement roots is creating a larger more productive rootball faster than the normal root development without radial cutting and associated trimming. After the first year in the grow beds i cut all escaping roots off to begin year two. This past year the escaping roots were left and i was rewarded with three flushes. I intend to cut the escaping roots at the beginning of the growing season this year. I need to move 1/2 the tree's to grow boxes in order to keep sufficient light reaching the lower areas of each tree. they are becoming to crowded.
Given the current progress, i can see no reason why the reported results cannot be obtained, time will tell. The trunk diameter has more than doubled in the past year of growth.
I am hopeful that the combined approach of growth techniques and more frequent reduction of sacrifice branches/apex's wherever located will result in smaller scars and more effective final results. When i consulted with growers in Japan ( 2015) several commented on the importance of changing sacrifice apex and branches, not just to change direction but to reduce the necessity of large scars. I also noticed several techniques being used to treat larger scars. Grafting a branch on to bring fresh growth to the affected area. Scraping the callous to re-excite the trees response to heal the area. Tinfoil covers to keep the scarred area cooler and from drying out too much. Bridge grafting accross the scar.
I am cautious to reccomend a specific process, the tree's seem to present a variety of growth patterns and i believe it requires a variety of approaches to develop each tree individually. Which technique for the situation presented and the proper timing of that technique.
Or on a lighter note. I have learned so much from my previous mistakes, that I am thinking of making some more.
 
Most excellent Frank !

What we are also looking at is since J.B.pine is also a soft wood, would it respond like
the native willow leaf ficus and grow the trunk rapidly [ say 5 years ] as well, in an
earthenware pot.
So two sets of growing are being tested - our version of ground growing and in earthenware
pots.

However the quality of the bark will remain a mystery until - mature age - steps in, says
8 to 10 years.

Love doing experiments, of course a small needled J.B.pine with good branching would
be wonderful at the end of it all.
Thank you very much for responding and looking forward to your reports in the years
to come.

Trying out for the J.B.pine contest ?
Good Day
Anthony
 
Anthony said:
Most excellent Frank !

What we are also looking at is since J.B.pine is also a soft wood, would it respond like
the native willow leaf ficus and grow the trunk rapidly [ say 5 years ] as well, in an
earthenware pot.
So two sets of growing are being tested - our version of ground growing and in earthenware
pots.

However the quality of the bark will remain a mystery until - mature age - steps in, says
8 to 10 years.

Love doing experiments, of course a small needled J.B.pine with good branching would
be wonderful at the end of it all.
Thank you very much for responding and looking forward to your reports in the years
to come.

Trying out for the J.B.pine contest ?
Good Day
Anthony
Click to expand...
I am not entering the contest. Lots of trees already underway and i wish to focus on quality. As it is, I plan to sell off quite a few each year to get to a manageable number when the refinement work really begins in earnest. I started some JBP, JRP, Trident, Hornbeam, Quince, Assorted Maples, Zelkova beginning in 2010. Last batch of seeds were planted in 2016.
Focus now is on Yamadori.
 
I think BVF said this earlier, but growing JBPs in the ground is tough. The roots run quickly and you have to control the top growth or you’ll get very weak lower branches. Seems like they can be prone to girdling roots too no matter how careful you are about spreading them.

I had one that in about 4-5 years in the ground, grew to about a 4” trunk and close to 12’ in height. Too late to address roots, etc. and it didn’t survive when I tried cutting it back and cutting back some of the thick roots on one side while it was still in the ground.

I think the colander/flat/root bag approach is the way to do it. Much slower but you get better character, less big scars, and a rootball that you can put in a pot. I’ve been working on JBPs from seedlings for the last 4 years after seeing Eric’s posts on them. Pretty easy, but now they are taking up too much room and soil so I’ll probably start thinning the 50 or so I have now into a more manageable number.
 
Adair M said:
Sacrifice branches “off to the side” don’t do much. Terminal (apex) sacrifice trunks do.

The way it’s done is find a place with three branches at a node, or reduce branches down to three. Select one to be a future branch. Select another to be the future trunk. The remaining branch will be the sacrifice trunk. Stake it up vertical. Plant the tree in the ground. Let the sacrifice branch grow unimpeded. Keep the future branch cut back and decandle it. Let the future trunk grow a little, but don’t let it get long and lanky. Make sure the sacrifice does not shade out the future branch and trunk.

After a year or so, remove the sacrifice. Look for another node on the “future trunk” branch, and repeat the process.

Repeat until you’re happy with the trunk. Then really start working on the branches. The idea is to keep the branches small while building trunk with the sacrifices.

Here’s an example of a tree developed that way:

View attachment 167893
Click to expand...


Adair, won’t having 3 branches at a node cause a bulge/reverse taper? Or, did you mean that the 3 branches just have to be at appropriate locations and close enough to each other for the design but not necessarily all at the same node?

Also, do I keep the future branch from dying by balancing needle distribution between the 3 branches and by allowing the sun to hit it?

Thank you!!!
 
Gurudas said:
Adair, won’t having 3 branches at a node cause a bulge/reverse taper? Or, did you mean that the 3 branches just have to be at appropriate locations and close enough to each other for the design but not necessarily all at the same node?

Also, do I keep the future branch from dying by balancing needle distribution between the 3 branches and by allowing the sun to hit it?

Thank you!!!
Click to expand...
Yes, lots of branches at a single node could create reverse taper. You’ll be cutting off one, the sacrifice, keeping one on an outside curve as the branch, and keeping one to continue the trunk line. If you see the tree start to build an unsightly bulge, remove the sacrifice.
 
Sacrifice branches and backbudding. This is largely discussed in a thread about Ryan Neil's podcast with Telperion farms guys here: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/not-to-be-missed-podcast.35938/ @Adair M posted these 2 pictures to illustrate the matter (hope he doesn't mind me reposting them here):
You do this:
B1908B18-A12F-4B68-BAA2-65EE48D3504C.jpeg
To ge this:
A592E324-CC7B-4CA3-8162-BB8C274F95D9.jpeg
 
Adair M said:
Yes, lots of branches at a single node could create reverse taper. You’ll be cutting off one, the sacrifice, keeping one on an outside curve as the branch, and keeping one to continue the trunk line. If you see the tree start to build an unsightly bulge, remove the sacrifice.
Click to expand...


Thank you!!!
 
Use grow bag, Trees pictured at Telperion are in these bags;).
 
Got it! I started listening to Ryan’s podcast with Chris and Gary of Telperion farms and grow bags is what they use. Thanks!
 
Brian Van Fleet said:
Gary Wood knows his stuff. That is a good podcast. I use a combination of his technique and Brent’s. Below are a couple posts that describe the sacrifice branch process to build a trunk, pictorially over several years:

https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/03/02/sacrifice-branches-black-pine/
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/sacrifice-branches-black-pine-part-2/
Click to expand...


Thank you, Brian! Great info! The photos help a lot.
 
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