just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Exactly.
How many trees have you killed?
- Thread starter Agriff
- Start date
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Removing weak foliage improves your tree by default - this only works if the weak foliage is drawing something away from a stronger and better branch. If there are no better branches.. you get pompoms and topiary trees; stuff that takes decades to develop further IF it buds magically on a trunk that was just pruned to do the opposite. The design process taught by the current popular youtubers usually lacks that exact nuance. If you're working from nursery material, it's fine to develop a strong branch from a weaker one. Cutting it off deletes that possibility now and in the future. This is especially the case in junipers.
Loads of wrong diagnosis on disease and bugs. Same goes for timing of techniques. This pisses me off to some extent because it makes people feel like the others are doing something magical. It gives people the feeling that bonsai is something they can't achieve.. But it's a matter of following the wrong instructions very well and it always ends up in the same disaster. Plant issues and bug diagnosis need to be methodological, otherwise people are just shooting in the dark and this doesn't help them in understanding prevention, cures or the hidden nails to the coffin.
The miracle cure peat moss treatment echoes a lot, diverting people away from actually looking at what they did wrong. Then the peated tree dies and it's nobody's problem. Look, Peter Chan swears by it, but very few people get the same results as he does. Him being in a UK climate with locally sourced peat moss is a huge factor that contributes to his success. The peat over in the UK grows there so well, because it resists a lot of plagues nature throws at them. It contains the right microbes for the environment because it's from that environment.
Now don't get me wrong. Everyone should be doing bonsai at their own level and at their own pace and everyone should make mistakes, that's the part I love about reddit; it's entry level! And there's very little judgment and a huge amount of motivational support. I am a proud owner of a loooot of sticks and most of them are going to suck for life. I don't need to hear that because it hurts my fragile ego and I'm willing to admit that, but I don't like reading people saying it's going to be a dream tree within a couple years. That's just giving me high hopes for something that's never going to happen.
Pushing people in the wrong direction is something I'm against. Again, I'm all for experimenting and learning how to walk with falling down and bruising your butt.. But some very active members there are so bad at giving good advice that it seems they switched to doing the opposite. "Get it into a bonsai pot as fast as possible" when dealing with pencil thick trees, and "That soil is terrible" while obviously a tree has survived in it for decades.. I believe no soil is ever terrible, it's us. The people who water it. Getting a tree into soil that works for our watering habits needs to be planned and thought out. If it takes another year, one should water according to the soil conditions instead of doing the bonsai-chore of daily watering. Yet, the high amount of motivational support also keeps pushing people to make the same mistakes over and over again.
Moderators locking the entire page from anonymous visitors every month or so is something I'm against too. If you're going to accept entry level trees, you should allow entry level people too. Otherwise you're just shielding a hobby and art form from the people outside of the circle.
I think bonsainut.com and a lot of other forums have way better follow up system, way more well informed members and more people generally wanting to do the right thing to help other people forward. Yes, they're rough around the edges and they can be gnarly. But they're really trying what's best, instead of what they heard a friend read somewhere on facebook.
My death count is in the hundreds, but that doesn't make me an expert by any means. I studied and raised plants for 15 years and worked a lot in plant tissue culture and experimental settings. As far as design goes, I try to keep my mouth shut because I have nothing to show for it, and again, a fragile ego. When it comes to plant health however - something I'd even love to fight the Japanese masters over, if they're up for it, reddit steps on my toes a lot. That and P. Afra and those other suckulents. Ewww!
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
HEY!
Be careful with that heretical blasphemy.
JackHammer
Chumono
My first tree was a fukien tea that I kept going for 11 years. It was from Ikea. I just liked it and kept it alive. It had some hard day's but did really well. I didn't know they were difficult trees until just this year when I lost it after a re-potting.
I saw a few encouraging threads talking about how difficult they were and decided to try again.
I saw a few encouraging threads talking about how difficult they were and decided to try again.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
andrewiles
Shohin
If you want to sleep soundly at night, remember that all of the trees that died in our possession were going to die anyways. We just changed to point in space and time that happened.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
This is true of us too, and all the billions of plants, fungi and bacteria waiting to digest us.
JackHammer
Chumono
Or perhaps the ones living inside us, just waiting for us to kick the bucket so they can have a party!
JackHammer
Chumono
Maybe I am naive but I work to take a very optimistic approach, at least I try to. I do everything with the best of intentions and to the best of my ability. Sometimes, that still means the experiment is a flaming disaster. And then, I try again.
Yes, learning can be hard but it doesn't need to be painful. The put-dows, and all caps criticism is really not necessary in any part of life, let alone a hobby bonsai website. I think it is embarrassing that people would lurk here (or other bonsai forums) for 2 - 3+ years before posting in fear of being shamed for their tree. They wanted a tree and got one at the store, I see nothing wrong with that and would encourage that person. Again, the community degrading the purchase to "mallsai" is a perfect example of the high-art crowd looking down their nose. What a great way to kill someone's enthusiasm by telling them their very first tree is worthless junk. I think every tree has potential, maybe it will take a while, but that's ok.
I had a fukien tea that I kept alive for 11 years. As my first tree, that was pretty good. I learned a lot about bugs, repotting, fertilizer, pots, display, pruning... now I have other trees that are laughably easy to keep alive.
I think my criticism is more of the community than your response, I just had to pick up on your rant and rant a bit myself!
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Hahaha!!!!
You should hear him explain EXACTLY how he feels about P Afra... it’s “good stuff”
vp999
Masterpiece
Thanks for sharing the list of, 13 more years and I will be a bonsai master..
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
More Tralfamadorian reasoning.. NICE!
QuantumSparky
Shohin
My first 2 'hardware store garden center' trees died but I'm blaming it on root rot from the soaking wet soil they spent however many weeks in on the shelf xD
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Congratulations!! (Wedding picture as avatar!)
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Lol
I agree with others.. There is no correlation between numbers of trees killed and level of bonsai mastery.
The number of trees you have progressed from raw material to refined bonsai yourself is a much better indicator imo
I agree with others.. There is no correlation between numbers of trees killed and level of bonsai mastery.
The number of trees you have progressed from raw material to refined bonsai yourself is a much better indicator imo
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
One other thought... experience in bonsai means both quality and quantity. It isn't enough to have a good teacher - you have to put in the work. You can watch bonsai masters wire branches all day long, but it doesn't mean a thing if you don't go out and wire lots and lots of branches. Wire 100 trees, completely down to the last bud, do it correctly, and you might start to consider yourself as getting good at wiring.
The reason why bonsai apprentices in Japan show such improvement is that they may be working 12 hours a day, six days a week, for six years straight, under the guidance of an excellent instructor. Compare that to your typical bonsai hobbyist who might spend a few hours a week pruning and styling trees, and you can see how a hobbyist might never achieve the same level of expertise in a decade that an apprentice achieves in their first year.
...and that's ok! Bonsai doesn't have to be a competition sport, and if you enjoy it, much of the pleasure (at least to me) is the journey of building trees and experiencing the joys and disappointments along the way. To make a living at bonsai requires a commitment that (at least to me) would take some of the pleasure out of it by ratcheting up the stress level.
The reason why bonsai apprentices in Japan show such improvement is that they may be working 12 hours a day, six days a week, for six years straight, under the guidance of an excellent instructor. Compare that to your typical bonsai hobbyist who might spend a few hours a week pruning and styling trees, and you can see how a hobbyist might never achieve the same level of expertise in a decade that an apprentice achieves in their first year.
...and that's ok! Bonsai doesn't have to be a competition sport, and if you enjoy it, much of the pleasure (at least to me) is the journey of building trees and experiencing the joys and disappointments along the way. To make a living at bonsai requires a commitment that (at least to me) would take some of the pleasure out of it by ratcheting up the stress level.
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BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
you could also throw in the fact that many hobbyists dont actually do much with their trees,for fear of failure or 'killing them'. if youre afraid of snipping a branch here n there, chopping off a limb or drastically cutting a tree back on mediocre to poor material how can you get better or expect to get better at bonsai?
i might 'kill' this tree by taking its head off, but theres more chance i might improve it...
do you take the drastic move and dramatically improve the tree long term? or do you say nope ill live with it as is because i dont want to weaken or kill it.
when Ryan talks about killing a few to get better, its a 'mindset' thing.
you do not set out to kill trees nor are you in a race to see how many dead bodies youve slain.
fear of failure or death will stop many from improving their trees, thus becoming better at bonsai.
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SevenOaks
Sapling
Hats off to you, indeed! On the other hand ... the first two trees I had were Fukien Tea ... killed them off in short order - one small and then (what was I thinking?) yet another one, much larger, thinking "big tree means more resilience" (not so much against sheer stupidity!). The small one is still with me, as a memento mori.
It took me years to gather up the nerves to get going again, from these two disasters. Perhaps I am not up to growing bonsai, but I am going to give myself another chance. Or maybe I'll just have to take up the pet rock hobby.
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Lutonian
Chumono
I try my best to not kill trees but it happens, sometimes you got to get medieval to improve inferior stock (kill or cure). The redit classifications make no sense, skilled bonsai people have good trees and can maintain them (proof is in the pudding). As long as you are enjoying bonsai and growing through your own experiences that's all that matters really. Some people are content with a stick in a pot that the cut like a hedge and that fine by me, other want to push themselves and the art that's fine by me too. There is lots of space in this hobby for all types of practitioners the key to this is being honest with yourself about your skill level and expectations. (to answer the question in the title, I have killed thousands of trees in a professional compacity, Lots doing bonsai and one I wrapped a car around)
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
The One Big Impediment to becoming skilled in bonsai is evident in some people we have all seen: people we know that are afraid of The Big Cut. Sometimes you need to Bobbyize a tree, but more often it's less than that but still doing something that will make the tree look like shit right now, but in anticipation of what it can then become several years down the line. These are the people who never advance, who accumulate 15 or 20 years of bonsai experience, but really just 15 or 20 first years, never reaching for the stars. Their trees always look like beginners, even when they buy good ones.
