Hollow trunks on Ficus

[Attila Soos]

I''m not talking about lime sulphur hardening anything. I saying wood hardener and lime sulphur are not interchangeable and LS does alot more than simply turn wood white.

I agree
I started using LS on a few of my olives, where the deadwood was constantly moist and slowly rotting. Since I applied just one session of LS, the wood looks dry, and the rotting clearly stopped. Live fungi keep the wood constantly moist, and when the LS removes them, the wood has a chance to stay dry and clean of live microorganisms.

 

[Tachigi]

You fellas are forgetting charring, stops rot from moisture, bugs, and fungi, gives as much color as you want...best of all its free!

I use this technique regularly. Did it to my high bush blueberry with a 7 inch nebari. Its hollow from the top to the bottom.....not a peck of rot in the past 8 years.

 

[greerhw]

You fellas are forgetting charring, stops rot from moisture, bugs, and fungi, gives as much color as you want...best of all its free!

I use this technique regularly. Did it to my high bush blueberry with a 7 inch nebari. Its hollow from the top to the bottom.....not a peck of rot in the past 8 years.

Yeah old dude, but you're talking about treating new shari and jin,right. If you tired that old conifer dry rot, it would go up in a cloud of smoke before you finished your beer.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Tachigi]

Yeah old dude, but you're talking about treating new shari and jin,right. If you tired that old conifer dry rot, it would go up in a cloud of smoke before you finished your beer.

keep it green,
Harry

Mmmmmmm.....fire and alcohol haven't tried that technique except when BBQing red meat.

As far as charring wood. It can be used on fresh jins, shari and uro (hollow), as well as old wood. If you have dry rot that is so old and powdery, then whether you use charring, LS, or wood hardeners your still going to have a problem. That type of dry rot is beyond any fix, in fact it promotes rot. Best fix is to scrap until you hit firmer wood, then choose a method to seal.

I speak from experience on this. Being in the boat building business (in a previous life) I saw more than my fair share of wood hull boats that came through my shop needing ribs or part of a keel replaced.

The cry for mercy from our customers always rang out to find the best and cheapest way to do the repair. "IF" the structural piece in question had a minimum of rot we wood remove it. Clean the rot spots and then char it heavily with a blow torch to preserve it. Then scab in any spots that needed to fill out the rib. After 20 years in the business never saw a charred piece ever come back with the same problem.

Now there were the pieces that were beyond all hope, because of extensive rot, and a replacement was the only thing that worked. Really killed me when that happened, nothing more pitiful than seeing a grown man cry when he gets the bill.

 

[greerhw]

Mmmmmmm.....fire and alcohol haven't tried that technique except when BBQing red meat.

As far as charring wood. It can be used on fresh jins, shari and uro (hollow), as well as old wood. If you have dry rot that is so old and powdery, then whether you use charring, LS, or wood hardeners your still going to have a problem. That type of dry rot is beyond any fix, in fact it promotes rot. Best fix is to scrap until you hit firmer wood, then choose a method to seal.

I speak from experience on this. Being in the boat building business (in a previous life) I saw more than my fair share of wood hull boats that came through my shop needing ribs or part of a keel replaced.

The cry for mercy from our customers always rang out to find the best and cheapest way to do the repair. "IF" the structural piece in question had a minimum of rot we wood remove it. Clean the rot spots and then char it heavily with a blow torch to preserve it. Then scab in any spots that needed to fill out the rib. After 20 years in the business never saw a charred piece ever come back with the same problem.

Now there were the pieces that were beyond all hope, because of extensive rot, and a replacement was the only thing that worked. Really killed me when that happened, nothing more pitiful than seeing a grown man cry when he gets the bill.

OK, you win, but alcohol goes with anything, especially on the fourth of July when we have pop bottle rocket fights using beer bottles of course. Rednecks have no fear or sense during consumption.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Bill S]

"OK, you win, but alcohol goes with anything, especially on the fourth of July when we have pop bottle rocket fights using beer bottles of course. Rednecks have no fear or sense during consumption."

Snicker snicker, cough cough, Harry your are a Hoot. No I didn't say coot.

 

[greerhw]

"OK, you win, but alcohol goes with anything, especially on the fourth of July when we have pop bottle rocket fights using beer bottles of course. Rednecks have no fear or sense during consumption."

Snicker snicker, cough cough, Harry your are a Hoot. No I didn't say coot.

Coot in training.......

keep it green,
Harry

 

[rockm]

The charring method is great, but it is not intended as a method to control rot. It is a cosmetic procedure aimed primarily at inducing and aged look to wood. Charring simulates the effects of natural weathering more accurately and convincingly than a drill or carving device.

Also, it takes some time and experience to get right. Done wrong, you can incinerate a decent trunk, set foliage afire or wither overhanging foliage, or set fire to your house--if you're working outside near the backdoor, or --God Forbid--working inside...

 

[Tachigi]

The charring method is great, but it is not intended as a method to control rot.

Absolutely wrong! Before lime sulfur and wood preservatives the Japanese developed this technique to do exactly this, preserve wood from rot and depending on the method used actually harden some types of wood. In fact this technique works so well that some methods have actually been patented.

http://www.materia.nl/583.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=235&tx_ttnews[backPid]=532&cHash=6ceb9a67dd

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4170668/description.html

Not to put to fine a point on it, if anyone has ever run up on an old camp site with a fire pit and noticed the remains of a fire. The charred areas of wood in that fire never display any signs of rot. Where as the some areas unburned start showing decay.

Also, it takes some time and experience to get right. Done wrong, you can incinerate a decent trunk, set foliage afire or wither overhanging foliage, or set fire to your house--if you're working outside near the backdoor, or --God Forbid--working inside...

This is a given, and as with any technique that is new to a person some practice is recommended. To working inside with an open flame, either your drunk or your wife isn't home.

Below is Colin Lewis and Ian Burke charring a yew and having a bit of fun. Note that the foliage is wrapped in a damp towel.

In summary either way charring works and adds beauty. Charring's effect is deeper and longer lasting than topical applications. Combine the two and you can forget adding the India ink to your LS, as the charring will add the dimension of shading you want in a more natural way while enhancing the effects of the charring method.

 

[Attila Soos]

Absolutely wrong! Before lime sulfur and wood preservatives the Japanese developed this technique to do exactly this, preserve wood from rot and depending on the method used actually harden some types of wood. In fact this technique works so well that some methods have actually been patented.

Ok, I am sold on this.
Tom, what is the best tool out there, for charring?

 

[pauldogx]

Beautiful job on that yew Tom!!!

Atilla---I just use a hand held butane torch that you can get at any home supply store.

This one:
http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS...etail/mid/1260/xmid/6951/xmfid/3/Default.aspx

 

[Attila Soos]

Atilla---I just use a hand held butane torch that you can get at any home supply store.

Cool, I will check it out at my nearest OSH this weekend.

Question: How close can one get to the live vein with the flame, without actually destroying it? I am talking about the area where the live vein meets the deadwood.

 

[rockm]

"Absolutely wrong! Before lime sulfur and wood preservatives the Japanese developed this technique to do exactly this, preserve wood from rot and depending on the method used actually harden some types of wood. In fact this technique works so well that some methods have actually been patented."

All due respect, nothing is absolute. The techniques you've posted are aimed at woodworking, not bonsai. In bonsai, using this technique interchangeable with LS as a preservative measure is impractical. Some applications, especially with interior work on trunks, or with smaller trees can be iffy.

On pines and other conifers, I'd make say I'm a little less wrong in saying that it's mostly used as an enhancement technique rather than as a preservative. Application of fire on coniferous deadwood can "open up" the grain of the wood and when the char is scraped off, leaves behind more believable weathering.

 

[greerhw]

Cool, I will check it out at my nearest OSH this weekend.

Question: How close can one get to the live vein with the flame, without actually destroying it? I am talking about the area where the live vein meets the deadwood.

Check the plumbing section, that's where I found mine.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Tachigi]

All due respect, nothing is absolute. The techniques you've posted are aimed at woodworking, not bonsai. In bonsai, using this technique interchangeable with LS as a preservative measure is impractical. Some applications, especially with interior work on trunks, or with smaller trees can be iffy.

Your right there are no absolutes except taxes and death....I amend my statement to "WRONG".

Since were playing semantics ..... the term carving, wood working, shaping and a dozen other key words I suppose have nothing to do with bonsai as well? Shaping, preserving, adding a patina all have something to do with working deadwood, be it in finishing a hand made cabinet (made from deadwood) or the deadwood on a bonsai tree.

As the two techniques when used in tandem being impractical?...Bollocks! When these two are used in tandem, is when both techniques truly reach there pinnacle on both an aesthetic basis and a preservation basis. While doing the preservative thing...the combination of charred wood that has been brushed, along with the whitening properties of LS are unsurpassed in achieving a natural look that you would find in nature.

I was introduced to this technique on interior work of trunks were a brush, chisel or gouge would have been fruitless. A fine kernel of flame can have a far better effect than any other tool at times when reaching into enclosed areas.

No doubt small trees require extra care and the right flame kernel is paramount.

On pines and other conifers, I'd make say I'm a little less wrong in saying that it's mostly used as an enhancement technique rather than as a preservative. Application of fire on coniferous deadwood can "open up" the grain of the wood and when the char is scraped off, leaves behind more believable weathering.

I would agree, using flame on conifers is a wonderful thing to enhance the texture of wood, as well as preserving it. The technique is a multipurpose tool that can be kept in your arsenal.

 

[Tachigi]

Ok, I am sold on this.
Tom, what is the best tool out there, for charring?

Attila, I have used micro-torches, shrink wrap guns and yes even acetylene torches. The micro-torch seems to be the best in a general application. One is picture in the image with Ian and Colin.

 

[greerhw]

All you need is a little help from your friends. Hum it to yourself while your looking at the torch....

keep it green,
Harry

http://www.ronsonstore.com/techtorch.aspx

 

[Tachigi]

Cool, I will check it out at my nearest OSH this weekend.

Question: How close can one get to the live vein with the flame, without actually destroying it? I am talking about the area where the live vein meets the deadwood.

If you look at the picture of Ian's yew you can see that the charred edge rolls almost right up to the edge of the living vein. Of coarse the fire will kill a living vein if left unprotected.

I personally use an aluminum tape for duct work (not duct tape), dampen the wood, place a dampened cloth over the top of the tape along the vein line and of coarse angle of attack as a lot to do with it. If you point the flame from the living vein side towards the deadwood you will decrease the chances of burning the vein.

 

[Attila Soos]

If you look at the picture of Ian's yew you can see that the charred edge rolls almost right up to the edge of the living vein. Of coarse the fire will kill a living vein if left unprotected.

I personally use an aluminum tape for duct work (not duct tape), dampen the wood, place a dampened cloth over the top of the tape along the vein line and of coarse angle of attack as a lot to do with it. If you point the flame from the living vein side towards the deadwood you will decrease the chances of burning the vein.

Got it, thanks a lot!

 

[rockm]

"Your right there are no absolutes except taxes and death....I amend my statement to "WRONG".

"Since were playing semantics ..... the term carving, wood working, shaping and a dozen other key words I suppose have nothing to do with bonsai as well? Shaping, preserving, adding a patina all have something to do with working deadwood, be it in finishing a hand made cabinet (made from deadwood) or the deadwood on a bonsai tree."

Being wrong is a matter of degrees No need to get upset with me. I'm not trashing the technique. Merely pointing out that people considering it may want to think a bit before doing it. It's not as easy as using a paint brush to apply lime sulphur and may not be necessary. In other words, it can be alot of work for a disastrous return if you don't know what you're doing.

For instance, taking a torch to a ficus that has a 1" diameter trunk with a dead spot may not be the best idea. And for what it's worth, most of the photos that show how to use this technique inevitably show larger conifers, or large (sometimes huge) trees. The majority of folks doing bonsai don't have that kind of material. They're working with smaller, less substantial trees.