HEY NEWBIES!

[milehigh_7]

If you are a beginner and still in the, "buy everything I see at home depot" stage, I have a suggestion.

There are two threads on here right now that have trees that are likely better than anything you have that would only cost you what you spend on one or two big box trips...

Move yourself a few years down the line in bonsai and just get one of these trees. They come from people you know and can trust and have, in most cases been trained for bonsai for several years.

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/amur-maples-for-sale.22647/

and here

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/trident-for-sale.23001/#post-346249

 

[Alain]

I liked but I respectfully disagree

Home depot trees could be really nice and fun and yield good starting material, Walmart trees also.
After-all neither Home Depot nor Walmart actually grow the trees, they are just the re-seller of nurseries trees.
And their trees are cheap.

This year at Home depot they have $44 boxwood for instance. Those trees are absolutely perfect for what I want to do: chop-chop and regrow. The trunk and possible nebari are as good as any boxwood trunk and possible nebari you could find and for the chop-chop part who cares of the branches anyway?
For junipers, azalea, holly, yew, mugo, some other pines and so on Home Depot (or walmart) are my main sources.

So of course that doesn't apply for all the trees (in part their maples suck, but once again a bunch of maples suck for bonsai purpose in a bunch of much more expensive nurseries) and if you want an already 30-50-110 years old tree you won't find it there but anyway you won't find it anywhere but in some yard available for digging.

So my own suggestion for the beginners: keeping in mind that any tree could may be turned into a bonsai but bonsai isn't for every tree if you like what you are seeing at Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes etc go for it and have fun with it at a not too expensive cost for a tree that you might very well end-up killing anyway, like that you'll learn at low cost.

And don't forget to put on the side some $ for really nice but more expensive trees from some specialized bonsai nurseries because sure those will be much more promising in a much smaller time.
And also don't forget to bring a shovel and your air-layering kit wherever you go because you will never find anywhere (unless you spend a fortune) the starting material a yamadori will be.

 

[coh]

I agree and disagree...not everyone is at the point where dropping hundreds of dollars on a tree like the one Judy is selling makes sense. People move forward in this hobby at different rates. For someone who is still figuring out the basics of watering, fertilizing, repotting, keeping trees healthy (and perhaps has no club nearby for help), a tree like that could be an expensive disaster (for both the purchaser and the tree), and could even turn someone off from bonsai completely.

 

[milehigh_7]

I liked but I respectfully disagree

Home depot trees could be really nice and fun and yield good starting material, Walmart trees also.
After-all neither Home Depot nor Walmart actually grow the trees, they are just the re-seller of nurseries trees.
And their trees are cheap.

This year at Home depot they have $44 boxwood for instance. Those trees are absolutely perfect for what I want to do: chop-chop and regrow. The trunk and possible nebari are as good as any boxwood trunk and possible nebari you could find and for the chop-chop part who cares of the branches anyway?
For junipers, azalea, holly, yew, mugo, some other pines and so on Home Depot (or walmart) are my main sources.

So you can get a $44 boxwood at HD? Well you can get this boxwood at the place I go for $100. It has a 6" trunk and much bigger nebari. Good luck finding that for a price close at HD...




As far as the two threads I mentioned, you won't be finding things that have had bonsai and pre-bonsai training at HD or Lowes and that's my point. Sure you can find stuff at those places and I have bought gobs but I only buy from the the clearance rack and for no less than 75% off. Not to mention, when we buy from each other we help support each other's habit. ;-)

 

[Alain]

So you can get a $44 boxwood at HD? Well you can get this boxwood at the place I go for $100. It has a 6" trunk and much bigger nebari. Good luck finding that for a price close at HD...
View attachment 101946



As far as the two threads I mentioned, you won't be finding things that have had bonsai and pre-bonsai training at HD or Lowes and that's my point. Sure you can find stuff at those places and I have bought gobs but I only buy from the the clearance rack and for no less than 75% off. Not to mention, when we buy from each other we help support each other's habit. ;-)

The boxwood I have in mind has at least a 5" base and - as it has been grow by cutting most certainly - is very likely to have it's real nebari underneath the 1st layer of surface roots.
So yes, it could very well ends-up like yours
But anyway I didn't buy it yet as I'm pretty sure the best boxwood I will find will be available for no charge at all as people keep removing this kind of shrub from their yard.

For the bonsai and pre-bonsai training I know that (and said it in my answer actually) but, and so?...
Aren't we here because we actually love to train our trees?
Here are 2 mugo I bought last year.
The small one I paid $12 and it came from the Hidden Garden nursery.
The 2nd one was like $20 from HD (it's much bigger that the 1st one).

So of course that even after just 1 initial pruning the one from the Hidden garden already looks like a little bonsai on the contrary of the 2nd one, that looks exactly like any mugo @Vance Wood could have after it's first pruning (for the overall look because for the job itself I won't pretend I'm @Vance Wood )
Both of them could give pretty decent tree. I had a lot of fun working on both of them but even more on the HD one because there was much more to do and I wasn't too worry to kill neither of them because in total I didn't even spend $40.



All my trees but one parsonii from my 1st year of doing bonsai are dead I think.
As @coh said paying hundreds of $ for them I might have gave up bonsai after the very first year.

Of course the 'giving money to buddies' part I totally agree with

 

[j evans]

I think that a reasonable approach would be to explore all sources of material. Not only the box stores but also the material for sale here on this site and other sites. You just never know where you might find something that fits your fancy along with your pocketbook. When that happens it is the best of both worlds.

Jamie

 

[petegreg]

This is a very good idea. Growing a good material for bonsai is really long lasting hobby. Buing it from an experienced grower is the best start. It's a pitty it's overseas...

But on the other hand, I think it's not for newcomers at all. We all know what keeping trees alive comprises. Personally, if I had started this hobby with €€€(€) plant and it'd died I would have quit it.

 

[Alain]

Growing a good material for bonsai is really long lasting hobby.

Normally yes, but not always...

Here is a little Nana I bought last year at Home Depot (picture from last year, it is cutter now ):


And it may very well be my 1st 'bonsai' (i.e. potted in a real bonsai pot, well not a real one, I actually did the pot for this one )
Just after 1 year and for the astonishing price of $4.50 (well, it was 2 for $9)
So of course I actually bought 3 and just this one fully cooperated but for $4.50 each who cares?...

So I guess I totally agree with @j evans : the best approach (for the newcomers completely hooked and with no hope of being cured whatsoever but for older Nuts too) is to explore all the possibles: cheap from big retailers, more expensive from better nurseries, yamadori (starting generally by digging your own yard upside down), babies from seeds, layers and cuttings, nicer material from here and other site and so on and so forth.

The only thing I would say don't buy it! Never ever buy that! Are the so-called 'bonsai' sold a little bit everywhere (generally: ficus, Chinese elms, Chinese privet and Juniper you think you could make a cascade of but think again)

 

[vaibatron]

Like any hobby, go in as deep as you'd like.. But if you want to start (as a beginner) with something that's not complete crap, you are going to be paying at least 50$ for pre bonsai material...almost always more.

Certain species are not found (esp at big box stores) for less than said price, with a trunk substantial enough for training.

Be prepared to leave the depot or walmart empty handed numerous times, if not always, before finding something that's interesting enough to devote your time.

Don't get me wrong, I have a large amount of material purchased at box stores growing in the ground. However, I purchased these trees with the understanding that I wouldn't be "bonsaiIng" for many years.

 

[milehigh_7]

At the end of the day the peeps that think you can do just as good at Walmart as you can getting one of the amurs that have been grown specifically with bonsai in mind, simply can't be helped.

I guess I'm the fool for trying to help out my fellow nuts that are willing to part with things they have put more work into than most newbies even know how to do yet.

Then we've got this guy who with the wisdom of one year under his belt thinks that he can do an initial styling as good as Vance. Again I just don't think there is any helping this sort.

This is rich coming from me but I'm here to tell ya putting that Nana in a pot won't make it a bonsai. Maybe some people just like to argue I don't know but I stand by what I said.

if you buy 4 or 5 trees from HD at $20 a pop that will never be anything good, you could have had a real tree with potential... In which scenario did you truly waste money and time?

 

[petegreg]

In the second one definitely. But after some time spent dealing with cheap plants and gaining basic knowledge and experiences needed to keep the better trees alive.

 

[Paradox]

Here is my 2 cents as a relative newbie with @5 years under my belt. I am out of the "buy everything at home depot" phase.

@milehigh_7 , your heart is in the right place and I agree with you in so far as its all about the material and that the odds of finding material at HD, Lowes, Walmart or any regular landscape nursery that will ever make a decent tree of any sort is extremely low. I have found a couple that I think will make a decent tree someday, but it will take time. I also have a few trees that were grown for bonsai that will also make decent trees some day and in probably less time. I'll try to post pics of both categories later (at work now and cant).

That said, I don't agree that a person just getting into bonsai with no knowledge whatsoever about keeping anything alive should go out and buy a $200+ prebonsai.

The cheap HD material is excellent for learning how to keep stuff alive, how to water (do we ever get this one right?), how to repot, how to prune, how to wire and how things respond to repotting, pruning, trimming, wiring. Killing a $40 HD us a lot less painful than killing a $400 tree.

I do feel you can learn a lot more initially from those 10 $40 trees than you can from one $400 that you are too afraid to touch because all you see is $400. The key is gaining confidence to tackle the better trees and you can't do that if you're afraid to touch the tree.

At some point, though you are absolutely correct, you have to move on to better material if you want better trees.

I got over the buy everything at HD almost 2 years ago. I bought lots of different cheap things. I've done a ton of repotting and basic pruning. I experimented with soil and got over that lesson in about 3 years. I killed a bunch of trees but I also got a bunch to live. I know what works for me and what I can grow.

Did I set myself back 2-3 years by working on cheap material during that time? I don't think so. I learned a lot and I gained the confidence to try more expensive material. I now have 6 trees that were grown for bonsai and I'm learning development and refinement with them.

We all go down similar routes when starting this crazy hobby, it's the nature of the beast. Unless you have tons of money to throw around to buy expensive trees and take private lessons, learning the hard way is how it goes.

Alain will figure it out in the next year or two and realize the difference between his HD trees and good material, or he wont. As long as he feels he is progressing and is happy, who cares.

 

[GSCarlson]

For me, as a newbie with less than one year experience, what I learn is more important than what I have. The most I have spent on a tree is $35 for a blue spruce from HD. And that was a stretch for me. I try to stay in the under $5 range.
At this time last year I had 3 project trees. I now have about 25. None of them are even close to being called a bonsai. But I have learned a ton by working with them and I have kept them all alive. In a couple years I will probably be ready for some better quality trees to work on. But for now I am concentrating on improving the trees I have. No more buying for a year or two.

 

[coh]

Very good summary, Paradox!

I'll add that I don't really object to the suggestion that some of the material stickroot is offering is a better deal than most home depot type stock...presuming it's had root work done along the way it should be far superior. And it's good to put that info out there for newbies. But that doesn't mean that cheap home depot type stock doesn't have its place along the learning curve, at least for some people.

On the other hand, I think the suggestion that a newbie should buy a tree like Judy's trident is...just plain bad advice. Maybe if that person has a very good support system (nearby club to work closely with) it could work. However, judging from the types of questions most newbies ask here, I'd say it's likely to be a death sentence for the tree.

 

[Jester217300]

At the end of the day the peeps that think you can do just as good at Walmart as you can getting one of the amurs that have been grown specifically with bonsai in mind, simply can't be helped.

I guess I'm the fool for trying to help out my fellow nuts that are willing to part with things they have put more work into than most newbies even know how to do yet.

Then we've got this guy who with the wisdom of one year under his belt thinks that he can do an initial styling as good as Vance. Again I just don't think there is any helping this sort.

This is rich coming from me but I'm here to tell ya putting that Nana in a pot won't make it a bonsai. Maybe some people just like to argue I don't know but I stand by what I said.

if you buy 4 or 5 trees from HD at $20 a pop that will never be anything good, you could have had a real tree with potential... In which scenario did you truly waste money and time?

I don't really know why you're discouraging people from working with cheap material when you yourself buy lots of cheap nursery stock:

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/thrift-store-shopping.22021/

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/more-2016-bargains.22362/

and are selling seedlings on this forum:

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/milehigh-selling-stuff.22083/

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jbp-quercus-agrifolia-dwarf-olive-dwarf-pom-seiju.22722/

I'm not trying to be rude but it seems a little contradictory to me. How is buying your seedlings more valuable than buying a bigger tree from a nursery?

I still buy the occasional piece of nursery stock but I don't buy everything like I used to. The rules for buying nursery stock are the same as they are for collecting from the wild: get a nice trunk with a decent root spread. Everything else should be regrown. The disadvantage of nursery stock is that you have to do a lot of root work and many won't survive the transition to bonsai life. The advantage is that they're cheap, you learn A LOT, and, as Paradox said, it's better to fail on a cheap tree than it is on an expensive piece of bonsai.

The J maples that stickroot is selling are huge and great bonsai candidates. The amur maples are much smaller. They may already be groomed for bonsai but they're only a year ahead (if that) of a nursery tree. I can lop the trunk and roots off of a nursery amur maple in 10-20 minutes and have the same result. And I don't need to worry about shipping. You can regrow an entire root system on these in a year.

Judy's tree is on a different level. I think it's bad advice to encourage beginners who aren't necessarily confident in keeping trees in bonsai culture alive to buy something so advanced. Worst case scenario is they kill it. Best case scenario is they set the tree back 10 years because they don't know how to refine it.

Stepping up your game by buying an expensive tree is one thing. But you should be reasonably sure you can keep the tree alive before purchase. Some people don't want world class trees. They want a hobby they can spend a bit of time on that results in a cute tree. It is good to want to advance your bonsai expertise but it is worth realizing that many people will not walk down that path because they don't want to. It's not particularly valuable to discredit those people because they want something different than you do.

Just my $0.02.

 

[M. Frary]

Some people don't want world class trees.

That's just crazy talk.

 

[milehigh_7]

I don't really know why you're discouraging people from working with cheap material when you yourself buy lots of cheap nursery stock:

...

I'm not trying to be rude but it seems a little contradictory to me. How is buying your seedlings more valuable than buying a bigger tree from a nursery?

They may already be groomed for bonsai but they're only a year ahead (if that) of a nursery tree. I can lop the trunk and roots off of a nursery amur maple in 10-20 minutes and have the same result. And I don't need to worry about shipping. You can regrow an entire root system on these in a year.

It is good to want to advance your bonsai expertise but it is worth realizing that many people will not walk down that path because they don't want to. It's not particularly valuable to discredit those people because they want something different than you do.

Just my $0.02.

I'm not discouraging anyone from anything and your $0.02 is certainly worth it. ;-) As a matter of fact you bring up a very good point. I do buy a lot of cheap things. Like this:
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/quercus-virginiana.4751/ mind you after I cleaned it out more it was closer to a 6" base. I believe this cost me $20 for a 25" box. Here's a video for another look.

Maybe we don't look in the same places and maybe we don't look for the same things or ask the same questions of the nursery managers.

I guess I could have gone to Lowe's and paid $59.98
for a 3.58-Gallon Coral Bark Japanese Maple (L7231) (With a horrible graft, no taper and lord knows what other flaws)
Item #: 556089 | Model #: NURSERY

Over the years I have found many treasures in the back of nurseries but here's the deal about the box stores. If you know anything about corporate finance, you know they can't keep inventory as it looks bad on the balance sheet and statement of cash flows. So they have to turn the inventory over very quickly. This means that no trees sit around for years. Typically you will get say a 1-3 gallon plant that is about 1-3 years old. It was very likely pulled from the cutting tray into a 2 1/2 pot then the next year pulled and put into a four inch then pulled and put into a gallon then sold to you for $10... Maybe the wholesale place keeps it one more year and puts it in a 3 gallon and sells it to you for $60...

I see tons of threads on here of people not really saving any money by going to box stores and actually paying more than they should for less of a tree then plopping it into a pot and maybe wrapping a few strands of wire around it and posting saying, "LOOK WHAT I GOT AT HD!!!!" Hey if you want to keep doing that be my guest. There are just better ways.

If you are good enough to regrow a root system in one year then let me just bow down to your skills... Not everyone is. Some folks might like to start a bit ahead of the curve. Judy's tree was referenced and you know what? She has not been at it all that long but she has chosen her material very well.


Those Vitex on the thread you referenced are all over 2" at the base and have corky bark which takes about 10 years or so to develop... Yep I paid $7 for them... Next question?

 

[Smoke]

I don't really know why you're discouraging people from working with cheap material when you yourself buy lots of cheap nursery stock:

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/thrift-store-shopping.22021/

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/more-2016-bargains.22362/

and are selling seedlings on this forum:

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/milehigh-selling-stuff.22083/

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jbp-quercus-agrifolia-dwarf-olive-dwarf-pom-seiju.22722/

I'm not trying to be rude but it seems a little contradictory to me. How is buying your seedlings more valuable than buying a bigger tree from a nursery?

I still buy the occasional piece of nursery stock but I don't buy everything like I used to. The rules for buying nursery stock are the same as they are for collecting from the wild: get a nice trunk with a decent root spread. Everything else should be regrown. The disadvantage of nursery stock is that you have to do a lot of root work and many won't survive the transition to bonsai life. The advantage is that they're cheap, you learn A LOT, and, as Paradox said, it's better to fail on a cheap tree than it is on an expensive piece of bonsai.

The J maples that stickroot is selling are huge and great bonsai candidates. The amur maples are much smaller. They may already be groomed for bonsai but they're only a year ahead (if that) of a nursery tree. I can lop the trunk and roots off of a nursery amur maple in 10-20 minutes and have the same result. And I don't need to worry about shipping. You can regrow an entire root system on these in a year.

Judy's tree is on a different level. I think it's bad advice to encourage beginners who aren't necessarily confident in keeping trees in bonsai culture alive to buy something so advanced. Worst case scenario is they kill it. Best case scenario is they set the tree back 10 years because they don't know how to refine it.

Stepping up your game by buying an expensive tree is one thing. But you should be reasonably sure you can keep the tree alive before purchase. Some people don't want world class trees. They want a hobby they can spend a bit of time on that results in a cute tree. It is good to want to advance your bonsai expertise but it is worth realizing that many people will not walk down that path because they don't want to. It's not particularly valuable to discredit those people because they want something different than you do.

Just my $0.02.

I have no beef with the notion of growing sticks in pots I have grown them, in fact am growing about thirty as we speak. What you won't see is me starting threads about my sticks in pots on a daily basis and compare them to the word " bonsai ". If one wants to post their sticks, that's cool too, just know that opens your thread up to public ridicule so wear the proper skin when opening that bag of worms.

 

[coh]

Over the years I have found many treasures in the back of nurseries but here's the deal about the box stores. If you know anything about corporate finance, you know they can't keep inventory as it looks bad on the balance sheet and statement of cash flows. So they have to turn the inventory over very quickly. This means that no trees sit around for years. Typically you will get say a 1-3 gallon plant that is about 1-3 years old. It was very likely pulled from the cutting tray into a 2 1/2 pot then the next year pulled and put into a four inch then pulled and put into a gallon then sold to you for $10... Maybe the wholesale place keeps it one more year and puts it in a 3 gallon and sells it to you for $60...

I've noticed a major change in the nursery stock available locally at Lowes and Home Depot in just the past few years. Whereas you used to be able to find plants with single trunks with decent size (occasionally), now you're more likely to find multiple skinny trunks, like they just stuck a bunch of small rooted cuttings in the same size pot. This gives the illusion of age because the multiple trunks produce a lot of foliage...but it's misleading.

I picked up a decent sized magnolia about 4 years ago for $20. It had a single trunk with some movement and reasonable size (maybe 1.5") for the price. The next year I looked for another but for the same price all they had was skinny little things usually with a multiple trunks. And that has been the case since.

 

[Adair M]

Foliage sells!!!