Help for Black Pine backbudding

[bonsai-max]

Hi there,

I need some help to backbudding my black pine.
Depending of the plant's strength I do the decandeling work and every year I remove the old needles and some of the new ones always according to the plants strength.
But here is the problem, the branch always develope a single or two big buds in apex and nothing back, so I really are not able to backbudding the branch.
This plant is a yamadory that is with me since 33 years but I really started to work on her the last 4 years and I am trying to develop a more compact tree
Here are some pictures, do you think I should take out the apex bud during the winter ?
I live in Basel, Switzerland as a reference for the climate.....



Thank you very much

 

[cmeg1]

I use Fulvic acid and kelp powders @ 5/2 ratio and promotes lots of backbud.Also a tiny bit of yucca will be a surfectant and sperad the water driplets for waxy leaves……1/64th tsp pr gal…….is also a mild fungicide.

RAW Kelp

For BULK sizes go to our Professional Division. RAW Kelp is 99% kelp extract from seaweed (Ascophyllum Nodosum). This product is fully water soluble. RAW Kelp is a beneficial supplement to all feeding schedules. It is also ideal for adding to foliar sprays and for creating optimal recipe...

npk-industries.com

RAW Full Up

For BULK sizes go to our Professional Division. Use RAW Full Up in conjunction with all nutrients and supplements. It is a beneficial supplement to all feeding schedules. Its also ideal for adding to foliar sprays and for creating optimal recipe solutions. Works in conjunction with all nutrient...

npk-industries.com

RAW Yucca

For BULK sizes go to our Professional Division. RAW Yucca is made from 100% natural yucca extract from the plant Yucca Schidigera. It can be used as wetting agent for nutrient solutions and foliar sprays and is great for flushing excess salts from the root Zone. When used on soils, it helps...

npk-industries.com

 

[bonsai-max]

Woooow amazing
I don't know if I can find these products here in switzerland... I will have a look thank you so much for your suggestion.
So you use 5 parts of fulvic acid and 2 of kelp powder, with water ? 1 liter ? or just on top of the soil ?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

1/64 tsp /gal . That is .02 ml/l ? Double check my math. @cmeg1 are you using at every watering at this dilution?

Or that is just the yucca component? What strength is the 5/2 mixed in?

 

[cmeg1]

Woooow amazing
I don't know if I can find these products here in switzerland... I will have a look thank you so much for your suggestion.
So you use 5 parts of fulvic acid and 2 of kelp powder, with water ? 1 liter ? or just on top of the soil ?

Foliar only once a week or will burn leaves…….this is per gallon……… or 4 litres?

Can drench soil every watering…….can substitute black humic acid powder for soil if like as it is a chelator that hold onto mineral at the root……if prefering more nutrient absorption use fulvic acid as it is lower molecular weight and flows into plant cells……in as little as four hours and carry plant growth elements and mineral ion directly into cells…..always 5:2 humic acid types :::: kelp ,yes.
Can blend the humic acid portion of the ratio 5……..and then the 2 parts kelp.

Simply put use 1/8th tsp humic or fulvic powder and then 1/16th tsp kelp powder……….no npk in the powders for foliar!!!
Foliar once a week as kelp is hot…….can drench soil every watering though.

 

[cmeg1]

1/64 tsp /gal . That is .02 ml/l ? Double check my math. @cmeg1 are you using at every watering at this dilution?

Or that is just the yucca component? What strength is the 5/2 mixed in?

5:2 is 1/8th tsp fulvic or humic—-1/16th tsp kelp
Then 1/64th tsp yucca ………all to a gallon of water.
Try these spoons on amazon!!!

https://www.amazon.com/Mini-Measuring-Spoons-Ingredients-Teaspoon/dp/B07F1M73G3?pd_rd_w=S1dvt&content-id=amzn1.sym.ce9ca2c0-e6da-49bb-bfa9-8359902989e9&pf_rd_p=ce9ca2c0-e6da-49bb-bfa9-8359902989e9&pf_rd_r=W5T3H93K08FC2WP2KB32&pd_rd_wg=SiUdU&pd_rd_r=7226e8f5-df74-4860-8232-92795e3bf865&pd_rd_i=B07F1M73G3&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_m_rp_9_i

 

[bonsai-max]

I can find these

Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid:​

https://www.amazon.de/Humintech-Fertiliser-Liquid-Potassium-Magnificent/dp/B0B4KJ41HT/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1OEOQI13L76II&keywords=humische&qid=1666540885&sprefix=humic,aps,131&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

Kelps I don't know if it's ok :

https://www.bonsai.de/concime-matsu-p-21413.html

But I can't find yucca....

So you mix all in I gallon of water and give them when and how much ? For example once a week from april to september .....

 

[cmeg1]

I can find these

Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid:​

https://www.amazon.de/Humintech-Fertiliser-Liquid-Potassium-Magnificent/dp/B0B4KJ41HT/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1OEOQI13L76II&keywords=humische&qid=1666540885&sprefix=humic,aps,131&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

Kelps I don't know if it's ok :

https://www.bonsai.de/concime-matsu-p-21413.html

But I can't find yucca....

So you mix all in I gallon of water and give them when and how much ? For example once a week from april to september .....

As long as there’s no NPK on the leaves nitrate nitrogen will scorch leaves and damage them….. and you don’t really need any unnecessary mineral ion salts on there at all considering phosphorus and potassium …..absolute zero NPK is the best

 

[bonsai-max]

Mhhh ok, but I can't find anything.
The Matsu Bio-alg should be ok in conjunction with the normal fertilization but for the other 2 I have no guess about the products...

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
I think this has been way over complicated, and there is a simple solution. Buy some Miracle Grow or similar water dissolvable fertiliser and use. No fert in Winter, but you might have a small window now til first frost. Plant food is your key here and you should be up and growing next Spring/Summer. I think your tree just looks hungry!!
Also it depends on whether you have a Japanese Black Pine or an Austrian Black Pine as they are handled differently. The latter being single flush pine, I think you prune after Summer. This will then give you growth and then explode in the Spring.
That simple motto - Keep it Simple.
Charles

 

[Shibui]

Agree with @KiwiPlantGuy Sounds like a nutrient issue to me. I get poor budding when trees are not strong. Well fed pines bud like crazy after decandling or pruning.
In our warmer climate I feed right through winter as pines never go fully dormant. I guess Switzerland is colder so probably not worth feeding through winter there but start feeding heavily as soon as new growth starts in spring. Feed right through to a few weeks before decandling.
Fertilizer while new shoots emerge will make longer shoots but may be worth while to get the tree growing well. Normally withhold fert until shoots harden then start feeding again to strengthen the tree for more good growth next spring.

JBP and European Black pine have different growth pattern. As this is yamadori in Switzerland I assume it is European black pine. Need to treat as single flush pine but fertilizer will still be the key to getting good results I think.

 

[bonsai-max]

Hi there, thank for the suggestion, I fertilize the plant with a PK 10-10 fertilizer from october to march twice a month then in april switch to a NPK 3-5-7 from april to July and in september, once a week both are liquid....
Here the weather is still warm, yesterday was a crazy 23 c° but soon the winter will come but Basel area is not so cold, just 2 3 weeks in February otherwise always over 2 3 c°
I have no idea if it's a JBP or ABP it was a small plant ( 5 6 years old) that i grab in Italy 35 years ago. So I don't know exactly the kind but probably not a JBP.
If I use too much N I have needle long 20 cm .
So if I have to threat him as a single prune, should I prune the big bud at the end of the branch ?

TY for the patience

 

[Shibui]

I don't know single flush pine so probably can't help with best management schedule.
I would not be taking out the candle in winter. This tree is weak so I would let it grow a bit to regain strength. Allow the new shoots to open in spring and grow through summer. Leave all the needles this time because they are the food factory for your tree. I have a feeling that your poor budding could be the result of too much removing needles so try letting it grow for a year unless a real expert in single flush pines comes along and says different.
We can always cut back hard the year after a tree has strong growth and usually get good budding then.

 

[Maiden69]

No nitrogen fertilizer has been debunked already. Nitrogen will not make the tree produce new growth, the actions you do on the tree are the ones that will cause it. I feed with Miraclegrow and osmocote plus till around end of November. The start again early-mid February depending on the last frost (usually for us the first week of FEB).

I can vouch for @cmeg1 advise on the 5:2 mix. Since I started using it as a root drench my black pines, and almost every other tree I have has produced back buds unprovoked. I'm starting with the foliar feeds weekly next spring to see the reaction, but a root drench every two weeks works wonders for me.

 

[bonsai-max]

So probably I make some food errors here.
I will try the advice of 5:2 mix plus the osmocote/miracle grow since the cold here is still far
If my calculation are correct the values for 4 liters are :

0.6 ml fulvic or humic
0.32 ml kelp extract
0.08 ml yucca

I found some products around me can you have a look at them ?
Then I will follow the specs of vendors if they don't fit

Miracle grow
https://www.amazon.de/Miracle-Gro-Purpose-Konzentrierte-Pflanzennahrung-flüssig/dp/B07JJ28V73/ref=asc_df_B07JJ28V73/?tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=427688037335&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6878285363872642654&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=20130&hvtargid=pla-695783308974&psc=1&th=1&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=102547570074&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=427688037335&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6878285363872642654&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=20130&hvtargid=pla-695783308974

Osmocote
https://www.amazon.it/OSMOCOTE-CONC...vlocphy=20130&hvtargid=pla-126547259100&psc=1

Fulvic
https://www.ebay.de/itm/392952183736?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=707-53477-19255-0&campid=5338906808&customid=DE_GardenAndTerrace&toolid=10050&amdata=enc:1Zal0zCUYQnSYFDz246R-Kw11

Kelp
https://www.bonsai.de/matsu-p-21413.html?language=en
or
https://www.plantplanet.de/Biobizz-Alg-A-Mic-1-liter
or
https://www.ebay.de/itm/16545796714...2Fvn|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2563228&epid=1854939988

I don't have any luck with yucca.

 

[cmeg1]

I can vouch

Good……make sure to use a more pure type water for foliar with the fulvic acid in the mix as it will transport whatever in your water quite effectively into your plant as that is its main claim to fame being a low molecular weight acid and transporter of plant growth elements.

Like do bot use a stored water with algea or fungus in it or something……..a fresh pure water is the best……..no chloramines or junk mineral ideally.

 

[bonsai-max]

Here is Switzerland the drink water from the public service is very very good quality....
I managed to order the Osmocote plus, and the miracle gro.

No nitrogen fertilizer has been debunked already. Nitrogen will not make the tree produce new growth, the actions you do on the tree are the ones that will cause it. I feed with Miraclegrow and osmocote plus till around end of November. The start again early-mid February depending on the last frost (usually for us the first week of FEB).

Do you put Osmocote in a bag or in the plastic container for fertilizer ?
Any suggestion about the kelp product that I found ?

 

[Maiden69]

make sure to use a more pure type water for foliar

RO water.

Do you put Osmocote in a bag or in the plastic container for fertilizer ?
Any suggestion about the kelp product that I found ?

I haven't had the need to get fancy with bags. Straight on top of the soil.

The expert when it comes to supplements is @cmeg1 . Maybe he can check the properties and let you know.

 

[bonsai-max]

I haven't had the need to get fancy with bags. Straight on top of the soil.

Oh my God look like an Hydroponic culture....

 

[bonsai-max]

Any chance to put together a management schedule for single flush pines since I have also a scots pine in arrive ?