Black Pine Help

[Paradox]

Understood. I agree that it's been a long term issue. I've just not known / understood. I'll have to see what I have in the way of pots and more importantly suitable soil.

I've heard of a trick in wrapping the roots in sphagnum moss. Is that worth looking at? It seems to work well for me if I take a wild tree (yamadori)

If the problem has been too wet soil, wrapping in sphagnum moss will just result in too wet conditions around the roots again.
So no, I would not wrap the roots in sphagnum moss for a pine.
Not sure where you heard that but we wrap air layers of deciduous trees to keep the air layer moist and promote root growth.
We also put it on top of the soil when repotting trees that like to be more on the moist side. Ive never done it with a pine

 

[Noo Noo]

If the problem has been too wet soil, wrapping in sphagnum moss will just result in too wet conditions around the roots again.
So no, I would not wrap the roots in sphagnum moss for a pine.
Not sure where you heard that but we wrap air layers of deciduous trees to keep the air layer moist and promote root growth.
We also put it on top of the soil when repotting trees that like to be more on the moist side. Ive never done it with a pine

Thanks again. Yet again my inexperience showing.

I've got 3 very small bags of a bonsai soil suited to evergreens and an equally small bag of grit. Not quite enough so I'll have to look at some shopping I think.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

One common technique for weak or freshly collected confiers is to put them in pure pumice. Excellent drainage, some nutrient retention, holds enough water to get it through to the next day so even in Wales the rain will not kill it.

 

[Noo Noo]

One common technique for weak or freshly collected confiers is to put them in pure pumice. Excellent drainage, some nutrient retention, holds enough water to get it through to the next day so even in Wales the rain will not kill it.

Thanks. Moss on top or leave open to the air?

 

[penumbra]

I would repot the plant now. You may save it, you may lose it, but in my opinion you have little to lose.

 

[Noo Noo]

I would repot the plant now. You may save it, you may lose it, but in my opinion you have little to lose.

yeah. That seems to be the consensus and I'm happy with taking the risk. Nothing else is working.

I've managed to order some Pumice that will arrive tomorrow.

Darn it, it's also started to rain, so I'll get it under some shelter for tonight.

 

[Noo Noo]

A couple of queries if I may.

Once transplanted into some pumice what should my watering and feeding regime be? I presume that will change after some time and if, cross fingers things start to improve.
Also should I feed and water immediately?

 

[penumbra]

Normaly I hold off on fertilizing a newly transplanted pine, however your pine appear to be starving. Personally I would foliar feed with half strength solution of a liquid fertilizer. I would repeat about every two weeks in my climate until it gets hot. I have no idea what your climate is so I don't have a recommendation for you. In fact, I shouldn't say anything at all until you post your location in your profile. This happens frequently where a poster will not give a location but expects an unanswerable question to be solved.

 

[Noo Noo]

I'm in North Wales, UK. It's a pretty wet part of the UK but our climate is noticeably changing with Summers becoming far dryer and Winters wetter. Far more frequent storms nowadays as well. You know the ones that aren't quite hurricanes but cause utter chaos in a country that isn't used to any weather outside the norm. I did post this earlier in the thread but will add the details to my profile now as well as I'll no doubt need more help down the line with my other trees which are just partially trained nursery stock and home grown seedlings etc.

I'm a bit nervous about feeding etc. now. I'd normally hold off feeding after a repot but this case is different and I'll be potting it into a medium I know very little about. No doubt the roots will not be in good condition. The existing pot will not be root bound. In fact I doubt there's very little growth or anything healthy below ground at all. All tips and help are really welcome here. I want to give this tree every chance, I've actually had it quite a long time and I've not done it any justice whatsoever.

 

[penumbra]

If you are nervous about feeding, go with a very dilute solution. Thing is, tree is starving and pumice has no nutritional value.
Absolute best thing for your tree is to put it in the ground and let mother nature have a go of it.

 

[Paradox]

A couple of queries if I may.

Once transplanted into some pumice what should my watering and feeding regime be? I presume that will change after some time and if, cross fingers things start to improve.
Also should I feed and water immediately?

Yes I would water it immediately and then whenever it needs it after that, meaning when the pumice is almost dry. The beauty of pumice is that it holds moisture but allows for very good drainage and air movement into the soil.
Also I would put the tree into a spot that has morning sun and afternoon shade if you can.

If/when it starts to show signs of good recovery, move it into a spot that gets more sun. I would wait a week at least before trying to feed it with a diluted fertilizer.

You may have to be patient. It may take some time for the tree to show any recovery. Or it might quickly show you that it's been too much and be dead.

Keep in mind that if by some miracle this tree does pull through, it is going to take several years for it to recover enough for you to be able to do any work on it at all. You need to let it get strong again if it can.

Either way, take it as a lesson learned and do better next time

 

[Noo Noo]

If you are nervous about feeding, go with a very dilute solution. Thing is, tree is starving and pumice has no nutritional value.
Absolute best thing for your tree is to put it in the ground and let mother nature have a go of it.

That is an option but I'm also conscious that the ground around here tends to be very peaty or in the direction of muck and rubble from the slate quarries in the area. Waste from them is used as fill everywhere. So I'm nervous of that idea being honest I've done it with a maple last year an it's gone nuts this year. There is a little room beside it.

Yes I would water it immediately and then whenever it needs it after that, meaning when the pumice is almost dry. The beauty of pumice is that it holds moisture but allows for very good drainage and air movement into the soil.
Also I would put the tree into a spot that has morning sun and afternoon shade if you can.

If/when it starts to show signs of good recovery, move it into a spot that gets more sun. I would wait a week at least before trying to feed it with a diluted fertilizer.

You may have to be patient. It may take some time for the tree to show any recovery. Or it might quickly show you that it's been too much and be dead.

Keep in mind that if by some miracle this tree does pull through, it is going to take several years for it to recover enough for you to be able to do any work on it at all. You need to let it get strong again if it can.

Either way, take it as a lesson learned and do better next time

Much appreciated. Thankfully I'm in no rush here and happy to wait for the tree to really grow some character if, by some miracle it does recover. Lessons have been learned here, just over the last couple of days, so thanks everyone. More to come. I'll post up some pictures of the roots an repot when the new soil arrives.

Thankfully, I have enough on my plate for this year with my other trees but this year shall be relatively quiet, basically letting them develop and then next year I hope to get a few of them into some proper training and I'll need a mountain of advice on those.

 

[Noo Noo]

Ok, it's been repotted. I would have liked a larger pot for it but I was a bit limited on material. Still plenty of room for it to develop for now though.

Not much in the way of roots unfortunately. Small root ball with only thicker stuff, no real fine fibrous roots at all . Anyway cleaned it up as best I could with a chopstick and got to potting it up.



But I have hope. There are a few buds showing, a few more than I'd noticed previously, so if this hasn't upset things too much there's a chance.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

It’s a goner.

 

[Noo Noo]

It’s a goner.

Every chance but I'm not giving up on it yet.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hmm…. that is a good thought and can work in some cases, yet from what I see is a tree in ER condition. It looks bad and if you want to keep trying here’s my thoughts.

I do like the idea and trying a later repot… it’s a bit out of the box thinking and might help since we seem to be gridlocked here on solutions.

But I do not like the pot and have an out of the box thought that I use sometimes to good effect in trees that are wet in pots and the trees can’t be worked that are planted in plastic pots, which this Is? If ceramic it’s more tedious.. see below.. Since I bore lots of holes in the bottom of my ceramic pots, this is never an issue.

First, before anything turn the pot on the side and check the drainage on bottom to ensure it’s not clogged. If it is, use a stick to clear it and followed by a jet if water to rinse out the accumulated fines.

Second, Here’s the out of the box part. Put the tree on a ventilator! Take a 6mm drill bit and bore holes in the side of the pot in rows about 3-4 cm apart… or so… all the way down to the bottom of the pot. If there is a tendency for the drill not to bit in, you might want to use a 2-3 mm bit to drill pilot holes first. This will help dry out the potting medium. It won’t be perfect, but is effective… and it works better with a tree in bonsai media.

If the pot is ceramic you’d have to use a ceramic bit…make the holes 4-5 cm apart for structural issues . and spray with water as you drill. Even more tedious and I really hope your pot is plastic because this would be a lot of work!

Third, chock up one side of the bottom of pot. You may need some side support to do this, to chane the height of the water table. It will be an incremental thing with that pot, but this is the ER.

Next, gosh this is a long list, sorry… next watering use 3% Hydrogen Peroxide …. Follow the directions on this table You may need repeat doses. coupled with the fall repot.

So folks, out of the box…

cheers and good luck!

DSD sends

 

[Noo Noo]

Hmm…. that is a good thought and can work in some cases, yet from what I see is a tree in ER condition. It looks bad and if you want to keep trying here’s my thoughts.

I do like the idea and trying a later repot… it’s a bit out of the box thinking and might help since we seem to be gridlocked here on solutions.

But I do not like the pot and have an out of the box thought that I use sometimes to good effect in trees that are wet in pots and the trees can’t be worked that are planted in plastic pots, which this Is? If ceramic it’s more tedious.. see below.. Since I bore lots of holes in the bottom of my ceramic pots, this is never an issue.

First, before anything turn the pot on the side and check the drainage on bottom to ensure it’s not clogged. If it is, use a stick to clear it and followed by a jet if water to rinse out the accumulated fines.

Second, Here’s the out of the box part. Put the tree on a ventilator! Take a 6mm drill bit and bore holes in the side of the pot in rows about 3-4 cm apart… or so… all the way down to the bottom of the pot. If there is a tendency for the drill not to bit in, you might want to use a 2-3 mm bit to drill pilot holes first. This will help dry out the potting medium. It won’t be perfect, but is effective… and it works better with a tree in bonsai media.

If the pot is ceramic you’d have to use a ceramic bit…make the holes 4-5 cm apart for structural issues . and spray with water as you drill. Even more tedious and I really hope your pot is plastic because this would be a lot of work!

Third, chock up one side of the bottom of pot. You may need some side support to do this, to chane the height of the water table. It will be an incremental thing with that pot, but this is the ER.

Next, gosh this is a long list, sorry… next watering use 3% Hydrogen Peroxide …. Follow the directions on this table You may need repeat doses. coupled with the fall repot.

So folks, out of the box…

cheers and good luck!

DSD sends

It's not in its original pot. I've got it in a large plastic bonsai trainer pot for now. I've drilled some additional 10mm holes in the bottom for additional drainage. I've certainly no problem drill more smaller holes in the side. It's also in a pumice type grit now. Very open and free draining compared to its previous home. There shouldn't be any standing water in there ever.

Never heard of using Hydrogen Peroxide before, so thanks I'll look into it.

Just hope I've given it a chance. I do need to find some shelter for it now though. Rain forecast tonight and tomorrow. I don't want a constant stream through it at this early stage.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

….It’s the perched water table above the pumice that is the issue….. also likely the potting soil has filled the interstitial spaces between the pumice grains over years.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Noo Noo]

….It’s the perched water table above the pumice that is the issue….. also likely the potting soil has filled the interstitial spaces between the pumice grains over years.

Best
DSD sends

Quite likely yes, in the old pot anyway. 100% pumice and similar grit now, so completely free draining.

I've been trying to think back and remember where I've gone wrong with this tree. For some years I lived not a million miles from London. The tree was reasonably happy there in the dryer climate. I then moved back home to North Wales, probably repotted it and it's been a steady decline ever since. Very spidery growth, no ramification. Even though I'd put additional drainage in the bottom of the pot it probably went through periods of being nearly submerged to bone dry. No wonder I guess.