Harunobu's "Azalea 20-25 Contest" entry

[fredman]

Very thought provoking post above @Deep Sea Diver
For the first time this exact thoughts has been on my mind all winter....since I read the books on microbes and fungi. I need to replant all azaleas this spring and they are all in organic soil. They haven't been doing that well in there to be fair. My ratios of compost, worm castings and bark was way off...soil compacts and gets hydrophobic.
Previously I had problems keeping azaleas alive in pots...used pumice/bark. I lost quite a few and took most out and planted them in the ground.
Now those in pots and some in the ground has to be replanted again.
I'm worried this time round to wash and trim to much off of the roots. My thoughts are with them microbes and fungi . I actually won't be washing off soil this time. I'm just going to remove as much I can and blow the rest out with compressed air...saw that on a Peter Warren video.
I went and bought a bag of ericacious soil today... it's preloaded with a slow release fertilizer...don't like that, but it's all there is available. Hopefully it's very lightly loaded.
I'll plant some in that and the rest in kanuma. Will see what results I get.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

At this point the only thing I am thinking about is trying out Fe-EDDHA on some of my chlorotic azaleas, including one of these cuttings (not this specific one), to test if they have a direct effect on pale green leaves.

Just a shootin the dark thinking about your situation, I’m wondering if adding a Humic acid w/Fulvic acid product might work better longterm in this situation. I started regularly using it a couple months ago.
Here are a couple small Satsuki I took back to twos or less and strongly pruned 4 weeks ago. Pushing leaves hard and now starting backbudding. I’d say it was more the combination rather than any one thing that worked here. Just a thought.
DSD sends
( Base ferts are Fish emulsion and Osmocote Plus with Miracid vs Fish emulsion every month or so.)
Kikusui


Minato

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I need to replant all azaleas this spring and they are all in organic soil. They haven't been doing that well in there to be fair. My ratios of compost, worm castings and bark was way off...soil compacts and gets hydrophobic.
Previously I had problems keeping azaleas alive in pots...used pumice/bark. I lost quite a few and took most out and planted them in the ground.
Now those in pots and some in the ground has to be replanted again.

Thanks
Interesting product. The ericaceous mixes haven’t hit my part of the US hard yet, it seems to be a UKish thing.
I’ve been just using small fir bark/rough peat/existing soil mix about 40/40/20mixed with a shovelful or so of composted manure. Literally went through bags and bags of the stuff this spring as we added 20+ 1g Satsuki and Kurume azaleas, Heather’s and Kinnickinik to our front gardens.
Recommended by some folks in The Azalea magazine. These folks especially like lots of bark! Feeding the plants for years....
We mix in a large hole and end up planting our azaleas a 3-4 inches above the ground adding some Holly Tone or osmocote to boot a couple months later.
I looked up your product details. This product seems eerily similar, except it uses Pune bark!
Should of put in for a patent...
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Harunobu]

That plant looks really healthy, DSD. I have plenty of healthy and fast growing azaleas. It is just that some aren't, even though they have the same or very similar conditions to others.

I saw the Peter Warren stream with the Dutch guy and all the (relatively) expensive stuff he used. I do know that nurseries here in the Netherlands and Belgium have growing evergreen azaleas down to a science. They might be using products like humic acid. Or maybe they only use osmocote. I'd like to know. Of course they mostly grow in greenhouses (I think). I got a plant recently from Germany ('Midnight Flare' rare here in Europe and should be really nice), and it was field grown. It might have been a stock plant they used to produce cuttings. The rootball came wrapped in burlap. And the leaves had these black spots on them that you sometimes see in plants. Plenty of growth on it, so not a problem. But not as pristine as some of these nursery plants. They are very deep green when they ship them to garden centers and put them on sale. And then when you put them in your garden for a couple of years, they start to lose that pristine look. A special fine tuned fertilized regime may play a big role for how green the leaves are. But I think the 20 C night temps inside a greenhouse could be the key factor.

I would recommend giving ericaceous mix. The actual components in it may differ, though. But if your pot drains water well, you can use 100% of it for your plants. But I wouldn't recommend it to someone who wants to repot a import satsuki that is in 100% kanuma. These perfect plants you can buy from (Dutch/Belgian) nurseries, they are in 80 to 100% peat. I see what look like pine bark flakes mixed in sometimes. I think only once I saw perlite. I have been using perlite to make the peat more airy since the beginning. Seems to work fine.

Now trying the 100% kanuma for cuttings. Seems fine for the Japanese varieties I have. But not for cuttings from my own seedling. My seedling was grown in peat/perlite, then moved into the garden soil. I would consider using fir/pine bark if I had a source of fine particles of it. The usual stuff you can buy is so large you can only use it as mulch. Way too large for my small pots. This cutting being in kanuma now is kind of the first time my variety has seen kanuma. It might be that some varieties like kanuma more than peat, because the batch of seedlings they came from was grown in one of them. Similarly, it is known that sometimes a cultivar doesn't like to grow in a pot. You plant out your seedling. One of them is nice and does well. You take cuttings and put them in pots, but they don't like it as much. Buddy Lee of Encore azaleas says he sees this sometimes.

There might also be small differences between the microbiome in Europe, Japan, NA or NZ, and that they interact with certain root cell properties. Like the density of some receptors and channels in the root cells, or the size of the hairs, of the thickness or structure of the cellulose.

Plants are in a symbiotic relationship, But I think that's kind of out of our hands. Just like we know our gut microbiome is really important, we still have no way to improve our gut microbiome to improve our health (except maybe eating fiber-rich foods and not consuming ethanol). I never use dilute liquid fertilized. Frankly, if the genetics make one of my varieties temperamental in that they need some liquid fertilized and they don't do well in 100% peat, they aren't worthy of being named. They should do well in peat with some osmocote because they cannot expect to be baby'ed. Some nurseries may use things like humic acid and specialized biome probiotic mixes. But not all of them do.

I have taken some new cuttings from the mother plant (which did grow a ton) of the cutting that is the subject of this thread. I'll try to put them in peat(/perlite) one year from now. And then in 2 years, we can compare those cuttings to the ones I have in kanuma right now.

Still, it would be nice to find a formula or treatment for azaleas with 'root system syndrome'. Leaves look pale? Ok, give humic adic/iron chelate/liquid fertilizer. I have experimented very little with that because the past years I was a student living away from my garden, only being there once every two weeks.

 

[Harunobu]

Plants are in a symbiotic relationship, so they evolved to interface through specific and selective mechanism. Genetic variation between here, there, and Japan might make things between them less efficient or productive.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

That's true, yet azaleas have been grown in kanuma in various other countries for years. Kanuma is a basically an inorganic substance from broken down basalt, granitic rocks. So, the kanuma doesn't have a ready source of organics for the biota to consume. However, there appears to be some algae getting started growing on the kanuma surface, so I'll bet that the micro biome is starting to crank up slowly right now.

So its down to a genetic vigor scenario as you aptly proposed, or simply that the soil micro biota for some reason has never really got properly established in the pot.

In that case a biota boost should do the trick as the mother plant seems hardy. If you don't like the additives, perhaps you could collect some soil from the ground around the mother plant, put it in some water for a day or so. Then use that to water the 5 year challenge plant. That might help if done for a couple weeks?


I do like your approach for the testing of the two soils! Perhaps having two healthy subjects side by side in two different soils - peat vs kanuma would give a clearer single sample trial of the media effectiveness.... I know it would be a pain to do multiple samples of each.

Stay well,
DSD sends

 

[Harunobu]

I am not entirely clear on the actual composition of kanuma. But the fact that it is acidic means it is not some inert mineral. It must therefore be a source of H+ ions. Which suggests it does contain organic molecules

So I looked for some papers and found this:

"Kanuma pumice contains bound water and humic substances. The concentration of humic substances contained in Kanuma pumice was 1.4%. "
"Weathered pumice from Kanuma, so-called Kanuma-tsuchi or Kohshitsu-do, abounds in allophane, which is one of the amorphous clay minerals and contains abundance of silica and alumina gels. "
"The raw pumice contains some pyroclastic rocks such as magnetite, augite, hornblende, quartz, etc.. "

Source: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpi1958/31/4/31_4_314/_pdf

Other papers mention Al-humus complexes:

Sci-Hub | Nature, properties and function of aluminum–humus complexes in volcanic soils. Geoderma, 263, 110–121 | 10.1016/j.geoderma.2015.08.032

And actually, the difference between kanuma and akadama is the depth at which they mine it, or the age of the rock.
I think this is from the guys that mine most of the kanuma and some of the akadama:

Introduction of AKADAMA and KANUMA-TUCHI

Then, we will introduce the state of the mining “BONSAI　SOIL”　"AKADAMA SOIL” and “KANUMA SOIL”.

www.tachikawa-heiwa.com

Pretty sure my bag has the 'Heiwa' 平和 kanji logo on it was well.

Of course the species of R.kiusianum grows on the non-sedimented vulcanic pumice. It grows on the (active) volcanos of Japan and every couple of 100s or 1000s of years they are knocked back when the vulcano erupts. And then they grow back as the solidified lava erodes. The organic soil that is there is that which they themselves have created. R.kiusianum is the pioneer plant that first starts growing on these lava slopes.

Dr. Creech states: "The slopes of this active volcano are so covered with fresh lava rocks from constant eruptions that the upper portions do not support a forest cover. Yet, among huge lava boulders, azaleas thrive in profusion and present a variable array of colors from light pink to strong, reddish purple.
Source : https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JARS/v28n4/v28n4-doleshy.htm

R.indicum is known to grow along river beds, where they are exposed to (water) flooding. The pictures of R.indicum I have seen shows them growing on rocks. It seems that only R.kaempferi grows in valleys with a proper humus layers, up to about 1 km of altitude after which R.kiusianum takes over.

Yes, my kanuma is discoloured, a sign of likely algae growing on it. Actually, not all my pots have that to the same extend. I think those with the most organic fertilizer added have the most algae growing on them. The one that grows the best actually is the most white. But it also has the largest pot (it is actually the 'Hekisui' that I posted a picture from earlier). Maybe it got less fertilizer? But just taking my pots of cuttings in 100% kanuma, taking into account that they are different varieties, different pot sizes, and different amounts of fertilizer, there seems to be a negative correlation between algae growth on the kanuma, and growth of the plant.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Ya know what's remarkable here? The time lag between the absolute positive acceptance of these materials as standard bonsai media and someone actually studying exactly what's is the bag. Please proceed.

 

[Harunobu]

Oh, and Deep Sea Diver yeah I could potentially add some soil from near the mother plant to the kanuma. I mean, that can never do any harm. But if I do it properly, I extract some piece from within the roots of the mother plant. Then I add it the kanuma of the cutting. But I am not really doing proper experiments anyway. And it will probably be getting better anyway, as time progresses. So it won't really tell me anything if I tried. I think I added a tiny bit of cow manure as fertilizer. I really like the sound of adding rapeseed or seaweed fertilizer much more. So I don't think I would ever recommend cow manure. But I had that and I thought 'let's add some traces of this since it is in kanuma anyway, and the new growth is a bit green (as the very first picture in the thread)'.

These cuttings have been outside here for about 2 years now, growing in peat for 1 year. They could pick up their microbiome.

Actually, I have had plants that I grew from seeds and that were indoor for a long time. And they were growing fine. They had no obvious contact to a source of microbes from outside.

And I actually have one cutting from this variety, and same treatment, that seems to be taking off now.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I am not entirely clear on the actual composition of kanuma. But the fact that it is acidic means it is not some inert mineral. It must therefore be a source of H+ ions. Which suggests it does contain organic molecules

"Kanuma pumice contains bound water and humic substances. The concentration of humic substances contained in Kanuma pumice was 1.4%. "
"Weathered pumice from Kanuma, so-called Kanuma-tsuchi or Kohshitsu-do, abounds in allophane, which is one of the amorphous clay minerals and contains abundance of silica and alumina gels. "
"The raw pumice contains some pyroclastic rocks such as magnetite, augite, hornblende, quartz, etc.. "

Source: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpi1958/31/4/31_4_314/_pdf

Other papers mention Al-humus complexes:

Sci-Hub | Nature, properties and function of aluminum–humus complexes in volcanic soils. Geoderma, 263, 110–121 | 10.1016/j.geoderma.2015.08.032

And actually, the difference between kanuma and akadama is the depth at which they mine it, or the age of the rock.
I think this is from the guys that mine most of the kanuma and some of the akadama:

Introduction of AKADAMA and KANUMA-TUCHI

Then, we will introduce the state of the mining “BONSAI　SOIL”　"AKADAMA SOIL” and “KANUMA SOIL”.

www.tachikawa-heiwa.com

Pretty sure my bag has the 'Heiwa' 平和 kanji logo on it was well.

Yes, my kanuma is discoloured, a sign of likely algae growing on it. Actually, not all my pots have that to the same extend. I think those with the most organic fertilizer added have the most algae growing on them. The one that grows the best actually is the most white. But it also has the largest pot (it is actually the 'Hekisui' that I posted a picture from earlier). Maybe it got less fertilizer? But just taking my pots of cuttings in 100% kanuma, taking into account that they are different varieties, different pot sizes, and different amounts of fertilizer, there seems to be a negative correlation between algae growth on the kanuma, and growth of the plant.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

So sorry, I had to switch devices and for some reason it leaves a blank message reply.....!

Smokin hot research job @Harunobu!

Besides being really cool, and awesome research, you know you saved me a lot of time on that part of the revision. (btw: Creech contributed alot of positive knowledge to the azalea field.)

To add on to what you so ably researched.... There is a thorough write up about clay soils and other base soil components in Koreshoff's Bonsai, Its art, science, history and philosophy, (1985-98) in the chapter "A Symposium on Soil" (one of the better overall bonsai books IMO) .

(btw: This is an older book and her inclination of desired soil is clay loam 45%, sharp sand 45% and 5-10% humus or leaf mold &/or rotted manure). Interestingly she avoids peat as its sterile, lacking in nutriments, tends to hand onto moisture too long, and when dry water repellent.)

Koreshoff, after expounding on other unique and important functions clay serves goes on to state (edited)

"Rich in available nutriments, the K, Al in clay are able to react chemically, slowly parting with nutrient elements to the plant, has more surface area reacting with surrounding solution increases as the weathering increases" and goes on...

"The most important chemical property of the clay particles is that of Base Exchange (ability to part with the nutriments required by plants).

• i.e. A clay particle may be considered as having H, Na, K, Mg and Al ions and these ions are all important in the nutrition of plants.
• When the surface of a particle is covered with water some of these ions are released and equilibrium is established.
• If these ions are removed from solution by plant roots, or leaching, the movement can be restored by the movement of more ions from... the particle surface into the water."
• "Conversely if nutrient cations are added to the soil in the form of fertilizers, these can be stored on the clay particles... and released as the soil solution becomes depleted."

Clay soils, have a considerable reserves of nutrients (except nitrate) against leaching by rain (and watering) and will resist rapid changes in pH value.

Another property of clay is the particles exhibit a strong attraction to water, as well as an ability to absorb water. However, the absorbed water is not available for plant use. etc.

Reading this and your research, one might thing akadama would have similar, if not the same characteristics?

btw: I'm not so sure about the moss being a detriment, unless your moss is way different then ours. Being in the PacNW, all of our potted azaleas have at least a thin layer of moss on top and it doesn't seem to bother water intrusion nor growth at this time. (with sphagnum in the kanuma too) They are literally exploding with growth right now. btw: the in ground azaleas rarely get moss on them.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Greetings @Harunobu!
If you haven’t had a chance to yet, please to fill out the azalea media (substrate) poll.
My thanks and please disregard this note if you’ve already polled.
Cheers!
DSD sends

 

[BonsaiWilderness]

Yes I love azaleas!!

 

[BonsaiWilderness]

I have 8 Azaleas!

 

[BonsaiWilderness]

Can just anyone enter this competition or do they need to do something?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yep! .....Anyone can and you do have to do something.
You are a bit late to the game, that’s not really a problem as it’s for encouraging learning about azaleas and fun anyways.
Check out @Pitoon Message with the rules.
cheers
DSD sends

 

[BonsaiWilderness]

Yep! .....Anyone can and you do have to do something.
You are a bit late to the game, that’s not really a problem as it’s for encouraging learning about azaleas and fun anyways.
Check out @Pitoon Message with the rules.
cheers
DSD sends

Thank you so much! I am light years behind you! I just wired it like 10 minutes ago

 

[Harunobu]

After a 7 day unprecedented heat wave (with unusual 20 C night temperatures), never recorded before and with thunder coming right now, it produced two more leaves form that one shoot I have been observing.



I didn't do the Fe-EDDHA treatment. I ordered it online somewhere, and I think I paid, but I never got a conformation email. (I have to check if they took my money for nothing.)

Also, some new buds:



The sibling that I put in full ground is doing better than the ones in pots in 100% kanuma. So far, I would say that growing cuttings in 100% kanuma is not worth it at all. For whatever reason.

But in terms of growth rate, I think all of these cuttings went into summer leaves growth mode. Which is a different type of growth than spring leaves growth mode. With spring leaves, the shoot extends quite a bit and the leaves become larger. That's how you get long shoots. And then at some point during summer, they switch into summer leaves. And these are just basically smaller leaves closer together that surround the flower bud that will eventually form. I think that at this point I might want to step in and pinch the apical tip of every shoot and maybe direct energy to those new buds instead. I don't think it will be starting the flower buds the coming weeks. But if they already were, I think pinching the tip (which is a tiny part very hard to see even in these photos) would prevent both the flower bud from forming and redirect some energy to those back-budding shoots. And those shoots have a different type of growth rate. I think I will wait until September to do it, though. The end result will be that these shoots will have 2 to 4 less small leaves plus flower bud. And the hope is that it will help growth at those new backbudding buds. Those could potentially grow cms before dormancy. That growth I will never get from those mature shoots.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Time for me to climb out on my customary limb, again. It is my understanding of growth cycles, -especially easy to follow in Azalea-, that plants need to complete one phase before they step lively into the next. To wit: There can be no flowers in spring unless and until the flower buds grow and mature the previous late summer/autumn. These buds cannot mature unless and until the seed is matured. This is evidenced by Azalea grown north of a variety’s range where the season is not long enough for the whole cycle of flower, spring foliage growth, set seed, mature seed, second flush, mature flower and foliage buds, quiescence. These Azalea flower every-other-year because in the year with no flowers, the season is plenty long to complete the rest of the agenda. This unfortunate condition can be short-cut by removing the flowers immediately following peak flowers, or earlier, whereupon the cycle continues and the whole agenda can be completed within the shorter northern season’s limits.

I’m betting that interfering with the late season maturation of flower buds will screw-up the spring foliage growth, which growth emerges from the base of the stem immediately under the flower cluster.

It is not clear in my mind exactly whence these foliage buds exist! Are they the product of last summer, produced concurrently with the flower buds and as mature as the flower buds presented in spring, or are they a continuation of the cycle which went into quiescence with the weather the previous late autumn and a normal product of spring growth? What happens in the absence of the completion of any given portion of a cycle? I don’t know. I’m betting that a better time to remove the flower bud is in spring just before it comes. I have done this and the result is the next phase, foliage expansion proceeds, unabated. I have done this in year one, and will continue in years 2, 3 &4 and that’s why I will stomp all comers in the Five Year Azalea Contest. So, there!

I challenge Upstart @Harunobu, (WACK! Sharp sound of a metallic glove crossing the cheek of said Upstart)... I challenge you to a contest of who has better looking and volume of foliage next June 1st. How say you, Upstart @Harunobu?

 

[Harunobu]

What exactly are you saying? I saw your other post on shoots with seed pods sometimes not generating new shoots because they are weak. I agree that weak shoots sometimes don't grow new shoots. And having a seed pod to develop can make them relatively weaker. And that actually pruning that branch can reset this and lead to backbudding when otherwise the dormant buds are being kept dormant by the seed pod. And that once the seed pod is open/gone and the summer leaves are discarded because they are old, the branch is dead from weakness.

But that's a different debate, I think.

Obviously, for an azalea to flower in spring, it has to grow flower buds in the autumn before. But I don't get it when you say you need seed pods to mature for flower buds to mature. Many azaleas never have their flowers fertilized and never get seed pods. Hose in hose azaleas can never set seed pods. I don't have experience with azaleas that are grown too far north where the flower season is too short for them to grow properly and set flower buds. It does make sense though. The plant has to decide when to switch from spring leaves to summer leaves. And when to switch from growing summer leaves to growing a flower bud. And to decide when to go dormant. And not every shoot ends in autumn with a flower bud. And it has to decide when to spend sugars on new growth and when to save sugars as energy reserves. And how to balance new root growth with new leaf growth.

As for spring growth next year. Yes, those buds emerge from the base of the flower bud. But I don't think the absence of a flower bud means that there is no base, and that therefore they cannot emerge. In spring, the entire plant comes out of dormancy and it is trying to spend the energy reserves to push out new growth. If it can't do so from the preferred spot, it will push it out from somewhere else. Would under this theory of yours no or less spring growth happen from the buds that are just budding out? Obviously, those shoots won't develop flower buds this year.

If a flower bud is removed in spring, it could inhibit dormant buds in autumn. Removing it in spring will limit the water requirements and not block light for the leaves underneath it.

I am not happy with the amount of growth on this cutting right now. I think it would have done better if planted in full ground. I think it will be better if I plant it in the full ground right now. I think it would have done better if grown in peat with either kanuma or perlite to improve drainage. But it will stay in kanuma because I wan to know how well it does this way.

I could put it under growth lights and try to gain a competitive advantage that way. Kind of tempted to keep it inside under lights this winter. There's actually no rule against it. I am kind of curious how much of a difference that will give between this cutting, the one in the full soil, and all the other ones that would have stayed outside. But I think kanuma for a plant inside is a bad growth medium.

As for if dormant buds were always there to begin with and only start to appear when they stop being dormant, like these brand new buds. Does a shoot that grow generate a whole bunch of dormant buds and most of them stay dormant always? Or are these buds I have now created from nothing? I don't know, but I think the answer is out there.

I know that for evergreen azaleas specifically, there is some research out there on chemical pruning/decapitation of cuttings for the purpose of developing nicely branched plants. The Belgians figured out the right chemical and concentration to spray to kill only the apical tips of young plants/cuttings.