Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Anybody know if humates are typically found in akadama? I'll give 5 points extra credit if you can give us the chemical formula for humic acid, too......
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/276207/humic-acid
"Hard" Akadama?
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http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/276207/humic-acid
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Anybody know if humates are typically found in akadama? I'll give 5 points extra credit if you can give us the chemical formula for humic acid, too.....
Depends, if there was alot of plants where the akadama was deposited then yes.
Chemical composition changes depending on what kind of organic matter was around to decompose into hunic acid. The average/basic chemical formula is: C187 H186 O89 N9 S1
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Anybody know if humates are typically found in akadama? I'll give 5 points extra credit if you can give us the chemical formula for humic acid, too.....
almost there......keep digging.
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
Some things never change... Smoke trying to make the kids swing at the pinata while always lifting the stick so it's just out of reach... the kids get bored with his pinata and instead have more fun with the stick... and Smoke gives the pinata a shake to see if he can get another swing.
My goodness you are bored old friend. Sometimes the prize is worth the hit in the end... but the game isn't fun for anyone but you dear.
You have always been a great doer.... which if the euphemism is true... means teaching might be out of your reach. Rare is the great doer and teacher all embodied in one.... which is why Naka-sensei was amazing. The stories that still circulate among those who knew him prove that out.
Warmly,
V
My goodness you are bored old friend. Sometimes the prize is worth the hit in the end... but the game isn't fun for anyone but you dear.
You have always been a great doer.... which if the euphemism is true... means teaching might be out of your reach. Rare is the great doer and teacher all embodied in one.... which is why Naka-sensei was amazing. The stories that still circulate among those who knew him prove that out.
Warmly,
V
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
This whole debate is simple.
1. First you have to define what organic "bonsai" soil is and what inorganic "bonsai" soil is. All the bonsai books have defined this for decades. THAT, is the determiner, not me.
2. Define what that difference is and why both have usefullness and can be detrimental to good horticutral parctise.
3. Define what the compromise is and how that relates to bonsai soil specifically.
Then factor the properties of akadama and its ability to buffer water to simulate Amazonian conditions on a "aquarium planting tank" to which I referenced, and how that ability relates to bonsai soil. All the while keeping in mind that Amazonian conditions are produced in the Amazon basin from huge amounts of flora and fauna (humates) which actually make the water "black" known as the Black Water of the amazon during the flooding season.
It is also a well known fact that humates are most responsible for increasing the CEC of clay compounds as well as lots of other substances.
Now the argument is that if one wants to plant in a totally inorganic mix, then use lava and pumice and turface (fired to the point of vitrification and so contains no humates) and you will have that.
Use Boon mix with akadama and you have introduced an organic component to the mix via the humates it contains.
Wikipedia says this:
Organic matter, matter that has come from a once-living organism, is capable of decay or the product of decay, or is composed of organic compound
Organic chemistry, chemistry involving organic compounds
Organic compound, a compound that contains carbon
Akadama contains organic matter, not only physically but humates, fulvates and tannins. This is what gives akadama the properties to buffer water down to support green aquariums. In the past, I was commercially involved in the aquarium trade building trickle filters for reef and black water aquariums. Back in the day we did not have akadama and so relied on coarse peat, of the type Walter Pall uses in his mix. Funny huh....Walter adds organic matter to his soil ( as well as humates), not so stupid am I. Dario you might want to read Walters article on composted wood versus fresh bark, your all mixed up on nitrogen depleation. Composted bark is not composted enough and so depletes nitrogen. Fresh bark will not decompose enough in a three year planting cycle to deplete anything. If you feel intent on aruing that, I would send you his way, beat up the big guy, you get a rise out of that it seems.
Now you all can debate this till the cow comes home. I use it, it works extremely well and have so for thirty years and when I can't get it anymore I will secretly make my way to this field and screen buckets of this humate rich organic/inorganic soil. Rather than debate it and try to dispel what you think you know, why not buy a bag and plant some trees in it and get some skin in the game and come back in a few years and tell me if you see a difference. If you don't, then by all means don't buy it or use it cause your just sucking up my resources.
1. First you have to define what organic "bonsai" soil is and what inorganic "bonsai" soil is. All the bonsai books have defined this for decades. THAT, is the determiner, not me.
2. Define what that difference is and why both have usefullness and can be detrimental to good horticutral parctise.
3. Define what the compromise is and how that relates to bonsai soil specifically.
Then factor the properties of akadama and its ability to buffer water to simulate Amazonian conditions on a "aquarium planting tank" to which I referenced, and how that ability relates to bonsai soil. All the while keeping in mind that Amazonian conditions are produced in the Amazon basin from huge amounts of flora and fauna (humates) which actually make the water "black" known as the Black Water of the amazon during the flooding season.
It is also a well known fact that humates are most responsible for increasing the CEC of clay compounds as well as lots of other substances.
Now the argument is that if one wants to plant in a totally inorganic mix, then use lava and pumice and turface (fired to the point of vitrification and so contains no humates) and you will have that.
Use Boon mix with akadama and you have introduced an organic component to the mix via the humates it contains.
Wikipedia says this:
Organic matter, matter that has come from a once-living organism, is capable of decay or the product of decay, or is composed of organic compound
Organic chemistry, chemistry involving organic compounds
Organic compound, a compound that contains carbon
Akadama contains organic matter, not only physically but humates, fulvates and tannins. This is what gives akadama the properties to buffer water down to support green aquariums. In the past, I was commercially involved in the aquarium trade building trickle filters for reef and black water aquariums. Back in the day we did not have akadama and so relied on coarse peat, of the type Walter Pall uses in his mix. Funny huh....Walter adds organic matter to his soil ( as well as humates), not so stupid am I. Dario you might want to read Walters article on composted wood versus fresh bark, your all mixed up on nitrogen depleation. Composted bark is not composted enough and so depletes nitrogen. Fresh bark will not decompose enough in a three year planting cycle to deplete anything. If you feel intent on aruing that, I would send you his way, beat up the big guy, you get a rise out of that it seems.
Now you all can debate this till the cow comes home. I use it, it works extremely well and have so for thirty years and when I can't get it anymore I will secretly make my way to this field and screen buckets of this humate rich organic/inorganic soil. Rather than debate it and try to dispel what you think you know, why not buy a bag and plant some trees in it and get some skin in the game and come back in a few years and tell me if you see a difference. If you don't, then by all means don't buy it or use it cause your just sucking up my resources.
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Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
lol... see.... I could kiss you right now... you dropped the pinata. 
V
V
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I lift the pinata, not the stick.
Give a man a fish, eat for a day, teach him how to figure out his own data and he will eat for a lifetime.....
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
lol... see.... I could kiss you right now... you dropped the pinata.
V
Your too quick for me.....Call me a Republican...I believe in people working for the reward...
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thank you.
Sorry but I am not on the "all inorganic soil" group. I always believed in organics...read all my posts about it if you wish.
BTW, NOWHERE in this lengthy post supported akadama to be organic (only your claim that it contains some). Read what I said about bats, whales, gold plated copper, and sand.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thank you.
Sorry but I am not on the "all inorganic soil" group. I always believed in organics...read all my posts about it if you wish.
BTW, NOWHERE in this lengthy post supported akadama to be organic (only your claim that it contains some). Read what I said about bats, whales, gold plated copper, and sand.
You have a huge problem that gets in the way of what knowledge you think you have. You are a black and white man. You have no ability to work in the grey areas, and that is what makes you unpopular in the forums. You have no ability to see another point of view if you disagee with it.
Did you even read what I wrote or did you just gloss over it?
What I said was, about three decades ago we moved away from organic soils. THE SOIL IS NOT ORGANIC IN A BLACK AND WHITE SENSE, BUT WHAT IT CONTAINED AS BYPRODUCTS MIXED WITH THE INORGANIC MATRIX. So, to get away from that we moved away from "loam" as a soil component, calling it "organic" and moved to things like perlite, pumice, lava and expanded shale products, true inorganics.
Then akadama comes along, about 35 years ago, and becomes a mainstay for bonsai soil "because the Japanese use it" completely unaware that a organic/inorganic has been reintroduced back into the soil mix.
Just for arguments sake lets say that akadama contains 10 percent by volumne of organics. If you made a soil mix of 90 percent lava and ten percent pine bark, would you call the soil mix organic or inorganic based on whats been written in bonsai books for 60 years?
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
All true... but is it not also true that how one teaches has a great deal to do with the success or failure of that learning opportunity. I haven't met too many teachers who love expending that energy to no success. The man with the pinata can kinda look foolish is he fails to entice the kids with the stick to the point that they leave and all that treasure goes to waste. It has always been a symbiotic relationship, that of the learner and the teacher.... appreciate the student, and the teacher will have a legacy worth telling stories about.
And I KNOW your a republican... I wouldn't have you any other way. lol
Your friend in all things,
V
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thank you.
Sorry but I am not on the "all inorganic soil" group. I always believed in organics...read all my posts about it if you wish.
BTW, NOWHERE in this lengthy post supported akadama to be organic (only your claim that it contains some). Read what I said about bats, whales, gold plated copper, and sand.
Thats because your using that sand sized shitty turface.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You my dear are speaking of the forum, we are discussing Dario. That, is two different things entirely. My job here is to make his life miserable.
.....and maybe a little bored.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
LOL...I think you got me mixed up with yourself. I believe I see a broad range...from white to black and every shade of gray.
I'd call that mix a mostly inorganic with 10% organic. Simple and accurate.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Because you cannot make it work?
THAT is a classic example of black and white reasoning.I am glad I can grow things in this shitty sand sized thing.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Yeah, you know...this approach might have some merit if this was high school - but it's not. There are many highly educated and experienced individuals here, obviously a number of scientists (including chemists, soil scientists, etc). What many of us don't have is the years of bonsai experience. I don't need to be "taught" how to think at this point in my life, so if someone has information of value, just post it and stop playing games. Otherwise this kind of thread is the result, and anything that is useful gets lost in the associated crap.
Chris
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
LOL...I think you got me mixed up with yourself. I believe I see a broad range...from white to black and every shade of gray.
I'd call that mix a mostly inorganic with 10% organic. Simple and accurate.
Excellent, I accept your apoligy.
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
I dunno about Dario... but I'd call that inorganic by my understanding of older standards.
What we don't have is a standard of measure... so this measure is subjective. It's not so much a matter of what is is, as what the individual believes it to be.
From Dallas Bonsai's blog.... a visual of the various layers of earth from the mining of akadama.... kinda cool... looks pretty organic to me. lol But what do I know... I'm not as educated in sciences as many here apparently are.
All my best to all,
V
Attachments
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
ROFLMAO...the response from someone who is out of intelligent words. You can stop and the humiliation will go away with it you know.
errrr..... ok.... that's an unfortunate waste of your talents my dear. Fo' shizzle.
