Funny you say that. I do plan to do several of the JBP this way (and a few over a tile to see the difference). I already have a different area at the parents where I have laid weed fabric last year in prep for grow bag areas. Going to do something like what the guy at Telperion farms does with his pines that I saw on the Jonas's blog.
Funny you say that. I do plan to do several of the JBP this way (and a few over a tile to see the difference). I already have a different area at the parents where I have laid weed fabric last year in prep for grow bag areas. Going to do something like what the guy at Telperion farms does with his pines that I saw on the Jonas's blog.
Several folks have mentioned the importance of trunk movement...very good advice! Another way to get started in the right direction for movement(besides wiring) is to place the seedlings through the tile at a ~45 degree angle....let them grow out and then chop back as some point to maybe 6" or less from the base...the new buds that form will want to grow up giving you a nice change of direction in the trunk... once things are cleaned up...you will get a more natural change of direction than can be accomplished with wire and potentially have buds on the outside of every change of direction. Continue building movement in the trunk with additional chops and careful bud selection.
I find that Tridents grow so fast in the ground that it is necessary(during the early development) to dig each year for the first few years and do the needed root work...otherwise you will end up with 1 or 2 huge roots....this also allows you to cull(there will always be some that just don't work) and to reposition plants each year for the best placement.
Although Adair's suggestion of only letting the tree grow to 3' before chopping seems logical...I strongly suspect that would significantly reduce trunk growth, thus lengthening the process by many years. Perhaps it might be good to try on a few and then analyze the results... With the usual method, the fastest growing seedling will have a 3-4+" trunk caliper and 10-12" root spread in 5 years...with all chops completely healed!
Once the tiles have done their job, I would switch to a board. This allows for easier positioning of roots. Reuse the tiles for more seedlings
I find that Tridents grow so fast in the ground that it is necessary(during the early development) to dig each year for the first few years and do the needed root work...otherwise you will end up with 1 or 2 huge roots....this also allows you to cull(there will always be some that just don't work) and to reposition plants each year for the best placement.
Although Adair's suggestion of only letting the tree grow to 3' before chopping seems logical...I strongly suspect that would significantly reduce trunk growth, thus lengthening the process by many years. Perhaps it might be good to try on a few and then analyze the results... With the usual method, the fastest growing seedling will have a 3-4+" trunk caliper and 10-12" root spread in 5 years...with all chops completely healed!
Once the tiles have done their job, I would switch to a board. This allows for easier positioning of roots. Reuse the tiles for more seedlings
Johng: Thanks for your input, yes I was already considering planting several on an angle and getting a variety of trees grown different ways to improve the diversity of material I will have to work with later on. These tiles are also temporary to get the horizontal roots going and then yes I plan to switch to a board so I can position the roots better, also reuse the tiles for future batches of seedlings. I will probably let the trees grow a little more than 3ft before I chop and work on the next sections of trunk, I am fond of the thicker trunk styles with the more dramatic taper. I also don't mind it taking a little longer for the chops to heal over. Obviously each tree will have it's own character and growth habits so I'll do things based on each situation.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Carpets suck , but I'd rather risk damaging a carpet than a nice hardwood floor!
Nice growing bed. I've got mine over-filled and it becomes a pain to get at some of the trees.
, but I'd rather risk damaging a carpet than a nice hardwood floor!Nice growing bed. I've got mine over-filled and it becomes a pain to get at some of the trees.
JohnG gives good advice. You could let them get to 6 feet or do before chopping. My point was just dont let them go to 12 or 15 before chopping.
The idea is to look at the old chop, and if it's healed over, and the transition looks good, then it's time for the next chop. Yeah, it's slower than just letting them go, but it builds taper, and as y'all say, movement.
The idea is to look at the old chop, and if it's healed over, and the transition looks good, then it's time for the next chop. Yeah, it's slower than just letting them go, but it builds taper, and as y'all say, movement.
fredman
Masterpiece
To be honest I'll see what to do when I open it up. Have never done this before. My plan is simple actually. I'll dig it up, see what I've got and take it from there. Cut the bigger roots and replant it. I'm not going to remove it from the top of the tile. I'll get in from the bottom and cut it flush down there. They will be wedged in the holes, so hopefully they'll be anchored in place.
Yeah 13 is a lot but i'll cut some of them away.... a raft or multi trunk.
I have a few other tiles in with different amounts of tridents and palmatums. Others I have just planted a bunch of them together and tied them up with wire, cable ties and some has raffia around them. They are also fusing, but only sporadically. Next year i'll cut the inside cambiums and bind them tighter for a while so they can hopefully fuse better.
Quick update. I've gotten the growing grounds a step closer to being prepared. Now I'm just waiting for the seedlings to catch up. Most are still a little too small to have the roots be under the tile, a few inches of dirt on top of the tile, and still have foliage above ground. But here is the general layout I've got going for the placement of tiled. I've got them staggered about 5' apart and the adjacent rows offset. Hopefully this spacing will provide plenty of light for each tree and not shade out any lower growth on nearby trees as I thicken their trunks.
Layout (tiles are the spots where I would bury them):
Some trees in trays:
Some trees in raised beds:
Layout (tiles are the spots where I would bury them):
Some trees in trays:
Some trees in raised beds:
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Indeed a bit small for planting out. You might consider alternating ground growing with box growing to keep the roots close and manageable. Very interested in the rest of the project!
Bummer the photos from my earlier posts seem to have died. Just wanted to give a bit of an update on how the project is going. I finally got a large delivery of haydite (expanded shale, rotary kilned) to amend the soil in my parents old garden plot to start a bonsai ground growing projects.
Mom was certainly surprised when the "semi truck" showed up for the delivery HAHA!
I got about 23 tons of the stuff.
Here is a photo of what the ground looks like now, very compact and clay like. This is why I'm going to till in all the haydite to help bring air into the soil and make finer roots for my trunk growing projects.
It's still a little too wet in most of the area to do the tilling, but I'm going to rent a bobcat with bucket and tilling attachment to help me to the heavy lifting in a weekend or two later.
In the meantime I built even another raised bed to start more seeds that will end up in the garden plot when it's ready.
I convinced the brother and girlfriend to help me out on Easter Sunday...
Filled with some of the haydite from my big pile and a pinebark and compost mixture to help with some water retention.
Lots of seeds were planted and I look forward to them popping up.
Mom was certainly surprised when the "semi truck" showed up for the delivery HAHA!
I got about 23 tons of the stuff.
Here is a photo of what the ground looks like now, very compact and clay like. This is why I'm going to till in all the haydite to help bring air into the soil and make finer roots for my trunk growing projects.
It's still a little too wet in most of the area to do the tilling, but I'm going to rent a bobcat with bucket and tilling attachment to help me to the heavy lifting in a weekend or two later.
In the meantime I built even another raised bed to start more seeds that will end up in the garden plot when it's ready.
I convinced the brother and girlfriend to help me out on Easter Sunday...
Filled with some of the haydite from my big pile and a pinebark and compost mixture to help with some water retention.
Lots of seeds were planted and I look forward to them popping up.
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
That ought to keep you going for a while...
I got about 23 tons of the stuff.
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Wow! 
Tieball
Masterpiece
Cool how that trunk bed lifts up!
namnhi
Masterpiece
Michael, Why did you think it is a waste of time. Mind to elaborate a little?
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
nice effort. And I was thinking i was nuts. Might give you fantastic trees to play with.
erb.75
Chumono
wow! where in Ohio are you? maybe I'll try to buy some of your ground grown stuff!Bummer the photos from my earlier posts seem to have died. Just wanted to give a bit of an update on how the project is going. I finally got a large delivery of haydite (expanded shale, rotary kilned) to amend the soil in my parents old garden plot to start a bonsai ground growing projects.
Mom was certainly surprised when the "semi truck" showed up for the delivery HAHA!
I got about 23 tons of the stuff.
Here is a photo of what the ground looks like now, very compact and clay like. This is why I'm going to till in all the haydite to help bring air into the soil and make finer roots for my trunk growing projects.
It's still a little too wet in most of the area to do the tilling, but I'm going to rent a bobcat with bucket and tilling attachment to help me to the heavy lifting in a weekend or two later.
In the meantime I built even another raised bed to start more seeds that will end up in the garden plot when it's ready.
I convinced the brother and girlfriend to help me out on Easter Sunday...
Lots of seeds were planted and I look forward to them popping up.
Sure.
Some points....
* Seedlings which have there radicle (tap root) removed never (or very rarely) develop another one and subsequent growth of roots is mainly lateral
* Cutting grown plants have only lateral growth in their roots so there's no problem with them.
* It is vital for the main roots (future surface roots) to leave the trunk at a 45 degree angle. This way, as they grow, the nebari will expand with them and develop good taper.
* Placing a young plant on a tile with it's roots horizontally, they will grow closer to 90 degrees and this results in the nebari NOT expanding and the surface roots growing in an unnatural manner. Also it may develop useless roots which must be removed.
* Placing advanced material on tiles in probably of no consequence as the main roots are already set into position.
* Ground grown plants - depending on species - need to be dug and strongly root pruned every 2 years or so. During this time it is very easy to select the good roots growing at the correct angle and to remove the rest.
* When root pruning, we also remove most if not all roots growing downwards directly beneath the trunk.
* For good quality control, young material should be pot grown for the first 3 years. During this time, you can do root pruning and selection every year, (pines every 2 years) after which putting them in the ground to add wood is easy to manage and there will be no surprises.
* I have been ground growing for more than 25 years and have not seen any advantage to placing trees on tiles. In fact I consider it unnecessarily boring and time consuming.
namnhi
Masterpiece
Mike,
Thanks for taking time to explain.
I think what you stated make a lot of sense but I have seen trees that grown on tile that has awesome nebari as well. I think it is important to work on the root while the tree is still young as you stated.
erb.75
Chumono
got any pictures of your trees that you can post? Very interesting take on tile growing. I do see a lot of "good" trees that look like there is no progression from trunk to roots , just that 90 degree angle
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