Growing a thick root mass

[Adair M]

There are ways to get roots where you want/need them; grafting roots on is one way. Another is cutting little windows on the base of the trunk and pressing in spaghnum moss. Should grow roots like a layer does. A lot depends upon the species of tree.

 

[leatherback]

a function of roots continually dying throughout the growing season vs a single, mechanical pruning during dormancy.

That is what I was thinking too. Trees are evolved to loose a bit of roots here and there in winter, to rodents, die-back, insects etc munching away over winter. Once spring starts up the tree is all geared to solving winter damage, and starting up again. So if we at that time remove part of the roots, it is not much of an issue. Remember that only the final few inches of a root have a function in uptake of water and nutrients. The rest is just support and transport.

These functional tips grow out continuously,never more than a few weeks old. By constantly having these tips "snipped off" by air pruning, the tree will have to recreate growing tips constantly = stress.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I just think that for broadleaf trees, using good substrate and exercising good root pruning/repotting technique will give you everything you want. Strong growth, a flaring nebari, a good root structure and plenty of feeder roots. There is just no need for all this unless you’re planning on keeping your tree in the pot for a long time and you don’t care so much about the nebari. Hardwoods in development I root prune about every other year. I’m looking at a field grown maple out my window right now - I dug it up, cut off every single feeder root, cut off the tap root, and went at the big structural roots with a saws-all. It’s thrown 6’ of growth so far this growing season. I just see no reason to continually kill roots on purpose all season. In fact, I think its very counter productive. If you want a nebari, you need to let the roots run and get big. You’ll never get anywhere with a mat of fine feeder roots.

S

Hi Scott,
Thank you for your reply re bonsai techniques and root pruning.
I suppose I didn’t angle my comment correctly, because I should’ve said “ that in the nursery trade having circling roots in small pots then up potting to a big bag/bucket prior to the customer planting this in their garden - is not good practice - as your documents and pictures have shown also.
So to counteract this problem we use the Copper plus paint to “chemicallly” control the roots at the start of the process. Eg. A better start but doesn’t solve the circling problem in bigger pots.
Anyway, on with bonsai.
Charles

 

[markyscott]

Hi Scott,
Thank you for your reply re bonsai techniques and root pruning.
I suppose I didn’t angle my comment correctly, because I should’ve said “ that in the nursery trade having circling roots in small pots then up potting to a big bag/bucket prior to the customer planting this in their garden - is not good practice - as your documents and pictures have shown also.
So to counteract this problem we use the Copper plus paint to “chemicallly” control the roots at the start of the process. Eg. A better start but doesn’t solve the circling problem in bigger pots.
Anyway, on with bonsai.
Charles

Got it. I’m sorry - I should’ve recognized that you were talking about a nursery practice, not a Bonsai practice. My apologies.

I’ve nrver heard of folks using copper paint before. Or really any type of chemical control. Clever. Have you found that it works?

S

 

[markyscott]

What you are saying and my experiences are very inline with each other. There is no quick method. My questions were only that with a bit of an explanation on it. I’m not a fan of the colander method for the most part. I really am wondering if the air pruning method can get you more roots coming directly out of the trunk. I would spend the extra year to get more roots all the way around the base (after root pruning to a single horizontal layer). Like I said early on in this thread, growing in a grow box and root pruning every couple years has given me the best results, but unfortunately I still end up with spots that never grow roots. I’m wondering if anyone has seen evidence that air pruning could potentially help with that.

To be honest, I would try it if shown some evidence, but the risks of growing in a colander make it a difficult proposition without until I have material that I can risk killing.

Understood. I’ve never tried it for that. My intuition is that an airpot will not cause roots to grow from a bald spot in the nebari. But who knows? Give it a try. I’ve always done what Adair suggested. Root grafts and cutting windows. Although I have to say that root grafts are much more reliable.

S

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Got it. I’m sorry - I should’ve recognized that you were talking about a nursery practice, not a Bonsai practice. My apologies.

I’ve nrver heard of folks using copper paint before. Or really any type of chemical control. Clever. Have you found that it works?

S

I think it works surprisingly well, as I was a little sceptical as to why we would paint our propagating trays. So the rational was that we used Jiffy (peat) pots for most of our work, mainly cuttings and tissue culture transplanting BUT because the jiffy pots had a hard wall kind of like plastic, the roots circled. These are small pots ( 75-90ml), and we noticed that a large % of our 10-20 litre grade of tree had the circling roots where the peat pot was, causing instability - eg crap tree.
The opposite has happened when we examined the same species potted on from the Copper prop trays. I don’t know the theory of why, apart from the Copper is toxic to root hairs (my guess), then the root branches and continues to branch much like a colander.
So, I was thinking I might start a thread, take some photos and results if there is any interest.
Charles

 

[Anthony]

@Adair M ,

Sifu,

more to look at,
Good Day
Anthony

perhaps these are older -

http://www.americanarborist.biz/2012/09/hackberry-tree-split-and-fell.html

on our side this trunk shape the / \ usually means no or minimum surface roots.
_____________________________________________________________

http://thephotogardenbee.com/todays-featured-post-part-vi-the-maymont-arboretum-and-tree-experience/

13 images or so down
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https://middleburgeccentric.com/2017/05/big-trees-plant-lady/



even with erosion

https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/hackberry-tree-root-gm547230218-98874831
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https://turtlerockfarm.wordpress.com/tag/hackberry-tree/

 

[Adair M]

The last one is decent.

The tree surrounded with a poured concrete driveway? You’re seriously using that as an example of good nebari to emulate? Really?

Do this:

Google “hackberry bonsai”. Then click “images”.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

remember images are drawn from nature down here.
Not Hackberry Bonsai -- unless you are Guy Guidry.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cristian D.]

That is what I was thinking too. Trees are evolved to loose a bit of roots here and there in winter, to rodents, die-back, insects etc munching away over winter. Once spring starts up the tree is all geared to solving winter damage, and starting up again. So if we at that time remove part of the roots, it is not much of an issue. Remember that only the final few inches of a root have a function in uptake of water and nutrients. The rest is just support and transport.

These functional tips grow out continuously,never more than a few weeks old. By constantly having these tips "snipped off" by air pruning, the tree will have to recreate growing tips constantly = stress.

I'm not sure I understand the last paragraph, to me it seems contradictory. First you say the tips grow out continuously and they are only few weeks old. Then, recreating the tips because of air pruning equals stress. But isn't the same if the tree is always growing new tips, as you said at the beginning?

Could you please explain?
Thanks!

 

[Johnathan]

I'm not sure I understand the last paragraph, to me it seems contradictory. First you say the tips grow out continuously and they are only few weeks old. Then, recreating the tips because of air pruning equals stress. But isn't the same if the tree is always growing new tips, as you said at the beginning?

Could you please explain?
Thanks!

Bear with me, but If I understand correctly... this is my attempt to comprehend what I've just wrapped my head around in this post also.... also my attempt to put it into layman terms

In air pots/ colanders/ pond baskets the roots grow, approach the edges and retreat back in fear of exposure and then splitting. Consider the key word here, "fear". If you lived constantly in fear youd be overly stressed.

This would benefit trees in refinement stages, trees being transitioned to pots, most slower growing conifers - again, probably closer to a refinement stage. Also Trees less tolerant of extreme root work, like conifers so it's best to keep the roots in check.

.........

In an enclosed atmosphere, think nursery container, wooden grow box, best scenario planted in the ground.

The roots dont have this fear of exposure so they live the good life. Continuously growing, reaching as far as possible. The tips are constantly growing, only a few weeks old but all along the length of the root there is potential for fine feeders and absorption of nutrients. Ideal for beefing up a tree. Less refined trees.

Just thinking, probably more tolerant of bare root work. Deciduous and Tropicals.

..............

Now, bonsai pots..... clearly they don't have the aeration from the sides. Thus the roots encircle and as "commercially" recommended are not repotted until the roots replace the soil completely. Usually every 2-3 years.

Which reminds me of a phrase I've been coming across a lot lately reading older post, "Only insult a tree once per year"

So you factor in a 2 - 3 year period... 1st year roots. 2nd year foliage. 3rd year maybe a balancing combo? Repeat the process. 1st year roots, 2 year foliage. 3rd year maybe a balancing combo? Repeat the process. 1st year roots, 2 year foliage. 3rd year maybe a balancing combo? ...... you get the point...

........

At least that's how it all is clicking in my head right now. Of course I could be completely wrong, none of this is right, and I completely misunderstood everything.

 

[Anthony]

Jonathan,

you could also ask this - do the air-pots/colanders/pond baskets,
make the roots use of the soil more efficient ?

So if you go from ground growing [ trunk and 4 to 6 branches and if
also needed, surface roots ] the next stage would be the refinement of
branchlets.
Hu Yunhua's book has a simplified set of drawings [ 4 ] that explains
the second part well.

Essentially just two stages.

Which is how we do it.

Additionally if the feature found on the shimpaku was abundant and
not rare down here, a phoenix graft would be done.

Health and Design.

I have something to show you, either later today or in the week.
Stay tuned.
Good Day,
Anthony

 

[sorce]

You really only need a basket to create the initial shape of the root mass.

Once you have that dense shape...
It really can't be lost.

Pull a root mass out of a pot....
Or out of the ground in a colander...

You're going to do the same thing...

Trim it back to that shape.

Sorce

 

[Lazylightningny]

There are ways to get roots where you want/need them; grafting roots on is one way. Another is cutting little windows on the base of the trunk and pressing in spaghnum moss. Should grow roots like a layer does. A lot depends upon the species of tree.

I'm currently grafting shimpaku roots onto a holger juniper. So far it seems to be taking. Also grafting shimp foliage onto it.

 

[Bezalel Nebari]

Plus we have 2 colanders set up with Fukien Teas for observation.
Same for double colanders

Hey Anthony, do you have any updates on how the Fukien Teas have developed in colanders?