Growing a thick root mass

[ysrgrathe]

Personally, I think the colander is wasted if you wait 2-3 years to cut the roots.

I would plant deciduous in something like an anderson flat and repot no less than every 2 years. I don't see the advantage of colanders here. I can't comment on Tropicals, Anthony has loads more experience there.

Conifers go in colander and follow the Bonsai Today timelines for repotting (generally every few years). If you use the escape method, lift and cut all roots no less than once per year, or you'll just get a bunch of thick roots and defeat the purpose of the colander.

 

[Lazylightningny]

In bare rooting, I tried to leave as much good feeder roots as possible. In some cases, these were quite long, so I had to wrap them around the inside of the pond basket. If I get decent autumn root growth, I assume I can prune them back on the spring?

 

[Johnathan]

Personally, I think the colander is wasted if you wait 2-3 years to cut the roots.

I would plant deciduous in something like an anderson flat and repot no less than every 2 years. I don't see the advantage of colanders here. I can't comment on Tropicals, Anthony has loads more experience there.

Conifers go in colander and follow the Bonsai Today timelines for repotting (generally every few years). If you use the escape method, lift and cut all roots no less than once per year, or you'll just get a bunch of thick roots and defeat the purpose of the colander.

Sooooo I'm pretty much over thinking it right? Lol

I just keep thinking the longer the roots the bigger the trunk, I see now the trunk will just keep expanding with time regardless of root length.

 

[Anthony]

@Johnathan ,

some trees have the ability to root thicken in very little soil.
Our willow ficus for example can do it in a 1 inch deep pot.
I have left images on this site.

Most trees need root run, as in the ground.
You can also take concrete blocks and bring them up to
x feet tall [ how high can your dog pee ? ]
fill will soil mix and plant your tree.

To beat the root problem, use a tile in the colander and tie with
twine [ rots before cutting into the plant.]

To activate an elm you need 1/3 of a US 55 gallon barrel [ we have
these abundantly due to importing liquids ]
Trident maple may respond as well.

Work here has been done on Celtis l from Louisiana.
Goes from root cutting of 1 inch to 6 feet in a year and 2 to 3 inch trunk.

The locals work, and elms / sageretias handle any foreign desires.

Thus far as J.B.pines go, you have to luck out with seed.
The article in B T 12 has trunk sizes to pot sizes, but have to get
seedlings that are faster growing than average,
Which we got through seed packets from company in Japan.
[ used to come from Dallas Bonsai and Bonsai Boy of Brooklyn ]
A check on the seed supplier turned up a Machinery Company
in Japan.

All I can suggest is experiment.

Remember it is 1 to 6 trunk to height.
And even a 2 to 12 is impressive and you need to check Forestry for
heights gained by trees in the ground for one year- seed to 1 years growth.
Otherwise where would you get your trees for lumber ?
Best of luck in growing,
Anthony

Seed pack from Japan

\

 

[ysrgrathe]

Sooooo I'm pretty much over thinking it right? Lol
I just keep thinking the longer the roots the bigger the trunk, I see now the trunk will just keep expanding with time regardless of root length.

Yes! In fact shorter roots are probably better. Long roots, most of the volume is wasted. We want all feeder roots! If your feeders are all really long, part of repotting is chasing them back over time, just as we chase back foliage on the tops of trees. Some trees (tridents) we can practically just cut all the roots off, others (many conifers) you have to take your time.

 

[Adair M]

Thank you @markyscott for stating on more scientific terms what I have been saying for years:

Colanders are good for developing nice compact root systems on pines. Pretty much everything else can get grown in a pot or grow box.

One look at the colander that Anthony posted that depicts Ted that huge root that had pierced the colander, then busted its way thru shows that there was virtually no point in putting it in a colander at all! The final result doesn’t show any nebari development. Oh, there’s buttressing, but it’s like the trunk just emerges out of the soil. Nothing like this tree:



I know, mine’s a pine and his is a tropical, but the point is mine has “nebari”, and Anthony’s does not.

 

[Anthony]

Uh Sifu, [ @Adair M ]

that's what they looked like in the backyard in Lafayette, Louisiana.


http://www.treetopics.com/celtis_laevigata/gallery1.htm

2nd image.
Flat ;land, no erosion, notice roots.

Are you supposed to fake it ?
Good Day
Anthony

* And as usual, good tree !

 

[Johnathan]

You guys have saved me some money, I'll just keep on working with pond baskets

No substitute for time

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Thank you @markyscott for stating on more scientific terms what I have been saying for years:

Colanders are good for developing nice compact root systems on pines. Pretty much everything else can get grown in a pot or grow box.

One look at the colander that Anthony posted that depicts Ted that huge root that had pierced the colander, then busted its way thru shows that there was virtually no point in putting it in a colander at all! The final result doesn’t show any nebari development. Oh, there’s buttressing, but it’s like the trunk just emerges out of the soil. Nothing like this tree:

View attachment 205261

I know, mine’s a pine and his is a tropical, but the point is mine has “nebari”, and Anthony’s does not.

Hi Adair M,
Just thought you and @markyscott would be interested in another version of air root pruning, but inside a pot.
We are using this method for propagating trays and small pots prior to potting on. The method is using Copper Oxychloride and mixing it with white acrylic PAINT. I think the ratio is about 500grams (Cu) to 10 litres of paint. We used a spray gun to lightly coat the trays with Copper.
I think you guessed it already that the Copper inhibits the roots from circlingas when they hit (or try to ) the pot wall they branch. I might try this on a bonsai pot. Only one man’s way to grow a plant though.
Food for thought?
Charles.

 

[Anthony]

Charles,

that is a little scary, if the paint flakes .......................

Well I will check as I told 0so, and see if the tamarind aged faster or
mutated with grown on cuttings.
If so then the use of air-pots [ on a tamarind thus far ] would be very
positive.

The tamarind came out the air-pot with the soil section looking like
wood.

Smaller leaves naturally and many more branchlets.
Ah experiments.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[peh3]

Why would root pruning by hand be different than pruning by air? Couldn't it be that the study didn't take other factors into account such as the containers used for air-pruning drying out way faster?

 

[markyscott]

Why would root pruning by hand be different than pruning by air? Couldn't it be that the study didn't take other factors into account such as the containers used for air-pruning drying out way faster?

You can take a look at the study or the others that the study referenced to make your own decision about that. I personally think that its a function of roots continually dying throughout the growing season vs a single, mechanical pruning during dormancy.

S

 

[markyscott]

Hi Adair M,
Just thought you and @markyscott would be interested in another version of air root pruning, but inside a pot.
We are using this method for propagating trays and small pots prior to potting on. The method is using Copper Oxychloride and mixing it with white acrylic PAINT. I think the ratio is about 500grams (Cu) to 10 litres of paint. We used a spray gun to lightly coat the trays with Copper.
I think you guessed it already that the Copper inhibits the roots from circlingas when they hit (or try to ) the pot wall they branch. I might try this on a bonsai pot. Only one man’s way to grow a plant though.
Food for thought?
Charles.

I just think that for broadleaf trees, using good substrate and exercising good root pruning/repotting technique will give you everything you want. Strong growth, a flaring nebari, a good root structure and plenty of feeder roots. There is just no need for all this unless you’re planning on keeping your tree in the pot for a long time and you don’t care so much about the nebari. Hardwoods in development I root prune about every other year. I’m looking at a field grown maple out my window right now - I dug it up, cut off every single feeder root, cut off the tap root, and went at the big structural roots with a saws-all. It’s thrown 6’ of growth so far this growing season. I just see no reason to continually kill roots on purpose all season. In fact, I think its very counter productive. If you want a nebari, you need to let the roots run and get big. You’ll never get anywhere with a mat of fine feeder roots.

S

 

[Johnathan]

I just think that for broadleaf trees, using good substrate and exercising good root pruning/repotting technique will give you everything you want. Strong growth, a flaring nebari, a good root structure and plenty of feeder roots. There is just no need for all this unless you’re planning on keeping your tree in the pot for a long time and you don’t care so much about the nebari. Hardwoods in development I root prune about every other year. I’m looking at a field grown maple out my window right now - I dug it up, cut off every single feeder root, cut off the tap root, and went at the big structural roots with a saws-all. It’s thrown 6’ of growth so far this growing season. I just see no reason to continually kill roots on purpose all season. In fact, I think its very counter productive. If you want a nebari, you need to let the roots run and get big. You’ll never get anywhere with a mat of fine feeder roots.

S

I think this is what I was looking for.

For growing out purposes a large container would be better than a pond basket. Sure you can still inspect roots often and correct them, but you shouldn't be promoting air pruning. I imagine the roots would be less thick growing in bonsai soil anyway.

 

[Adair M]

Uh Sifu, [ @Adair M ]

that's what they looked like in the backyard in Lafayette, Louisiana.


http://www.treetopics.com/celtis_laevigata/gallery1.htm

2nd image.
Flat ;land, no erosion, notice roots.

Are you supposed to fake it ?
Good Day
Anthony

* And as usual, good tree !

Yes, that looks like a young tree. A stick in a pot!

Bonsai is supposed to look like an idealized version of an adult, mature, tree.

Over time, surface roots don’t form by erosion. The roots will slowly thicken as they swell. And push up. I suppose the soil directly above the root gets washed away, even on flat land. The d@mn Maples in my front yard have killed all the grass by growing surface roots! And it’s flat.

 

[Adair M]

I just think that for broadleaf trees, using good substrate and exercising good root pruning/repotting technique will give you everything you want. Strong growth, a flaring nebari, a good root structure and plenty of feeder roots. There is just no need for all this unless you’re planning on keeping your tree in the pot for a long time and you don’t care so much about the nebari. Hardwoods in development I root prune about every other year. I’m looking at a field grown maple out my window right now - I dug it up, cut off every single feeder root, cut off the tap root, and went at the big structural roots with a saws-all. It’s thrown 6’ of growth so far this growing season. I just see no reason to continually kill roots on purpose all season. In fact, I think its very counter productive. If you want a nebari, you need to let the roots run and get big. You’ll never get anywhere with a mat of fine feeder roots.

S

Within reason. Sometimes field grown tridents get a few huge buttressing roots. The best nebari has 360 degree roots like we discuss in your Ebihara Maples thread. You don’t have to make pancakes, just nice spreading nebari.

 

[Saddler]

Charles,

that is a little scary, if the paint flakes .......................

What makes it scary? What is it going to do? Even the simplest search tells me you have mostly likely eaten it at some point as it’s a fungicide for tea, oranges, grapes, coffee etc. It’s fed to livestock as a mineral supplement. It’s a pigment in paint. Very scary stuff isn’t it?

 

[Saddler]

My question is how the air pruning method can be used to help get the best roots/Nebari/any other part of the tree? My thought process is something like this, if you have three or four big roots and only a few small roots, could you airprune for a season or two to help get smaller and more abundant roots around the base and then go to a standard grow box/pot to build those roots? Does airpruning give you more roots at the trunk?

Could airpruning be used as a method to weaken the tree for a season to get shorter internodes when you really want them? I have a tree I want to cut back the primary branches to start growing the secondary that I will grow out for a couple years. If I could cut back and get the shortest possible internodes using this and other methods, so when I cut back to start growing my tertiary I have all the options.

 

[markyscott]

My question is how the air pruning method can be used to help get the best roots/Nebari/any other part of the tree? My thought process is something like this, if you have three or four big roots and only a few small roots, could you airprune for a season or two to help get smaller and more abundant roots around the base and then go to a standard grow box/pot to build those roots? Does airpruning give you more roots at the trunk?

Could airpruning be used as a method to weaken the tree for a season to get shorter internodes when you really want them? I have a tree I want to cut back the primary branches to start growing the secondary that I will grow out for a couple years. If I could cut back and get the shortest possible internodes using this and other methods, so when I cut back to start growing my tertiary I have all the options.

It seems like you’re excited about it, so what can I say. Give it a go. Just remember, growing roots and building nebari is just like building branches or any other part of the tree. The best way to make them thick and strong is to let them grow. The best way to build nebari is by build a good radial root pattern emerging from the trunk at one level and then to allow the surface roots to extend until they’re the thickness you want. The roots that provide the most water get the most sugar from the leaves - that is what triggers cell division at the base of the trunk and causes the basal flare. You encourage those to be the surface roots by eliminating all the downward growing roots and by letting the surface roots grow radially away from the trunk until they’re as thick as you need them. Then you make them branch by cutting them back. So this whole thing works just like everything else - you let them grow long, then you cut them back. It’s the way you build trunk, it’s the way you build branches and it’s the way you build roots. No magic. You let them grow long, then you cut them back. Over and over.

With good technique and good soil you can build a good root system no problem - no tricky pots necessary.

 

[Saddler]

It seems like you’re excited about it, so what can I say. Give it a go. Just remember, growing roots and building nebari is just like building branches or any other part of the tree. The best way to make them thick and strong is to let them grow. The best way to build nebari is by build a good radial root pattern emerging from the trunk at one level and then to allow the surface roots to extend until they’re the thickness you want. The roots that provide the most water get the most sugar from the leaves - that is what triggers cell division at the base of the trunk and causes the basal flare. You encourage those to be the surface roots by eliminating all the downward growing roots and by letting the surface roots grow radially away from the trunk until they’re as thick as you need them. Then you make them branch by cutting them back. So this whole thing works just like everything else - you let them grow long, then you cut them back. It’s the way you build trunk, it’s the way you build branches and it’s the way you build roots. No magic. You let them grow long, then you cut them back. Over and over.

With good technique and good soil you can build a good root system no problem - no tricky pots necessary.

View attachment 205363View attachment 205364

What you are saying and my experiences are very inline with each other. There is no quick method. My questions were only that with a bit of an explanation on it. I’m not a fan of the colander method for the most part. I really am wondering if the air pruning method can get you more roots coming directly out of the trunk. I would spend the extra year to get more roots all the way around the base (after root pruning to a single horizontal layer). Like I said early on in this thread, growing in a grow box and root pruning every couple years has given me the best results, but unfortunately I still end up with spots that never grow roots. I’m wondering if anyone has seen evidence that air pruning could potentially help with that.

To be honest, I would try it if shown some evidence, but the risks of growing in a colander make it a difficult proposition without until I have material that I can risk killing.