Grow beds vs amended ground growing

[herzausstahl]

So I have a couple raised beds I built with the idea that it would be easier to reach the trees in them if I wanted to do any light styling as they are growing out and also because my soil is heavy clay. Having the grow beds only 8-10" boards hasn't raised them off the ground that much so it feels kind of negligible for being easier to work on the trees besides forcing me to space them properly apart. Does anyone see any harm in instead tilling the soil and amending it to make it more free draining? Or would you still say its better to use the raised beds with a free draining mix?

 

[ysrgrathe]

It depends a lot on your soil and how water drains on your property. I could till all the drainage I wanted into my soil, it would still be a bathtub due to the surrounding clay and how my property is graded. My beds aren't much more than 8-10" but they have many square feet of open drainage around the edges which makes a world of difference.

 

[Stan Kengai]

Plants will establish faster and grow more vigorously in a raised bed for the first 2 years or so. But typically in year three ground plants will catch up to and pass raised bed plants. Raised beds give more controlled growth both top and bottom.

 

[ArtistWolf]

Good questions. I am using the bottom tray of a rabbit/guinea pig cage as a small raised bed for some of my bonsai. Drilled holes in it. It isn't deep enough to keep them there for too many years though...

 

[herzausstahl]

It depends a lot on your soil and how water drains on your property. I could till all the drainage I wanted into my soil, it would still be a bathtub due to the surrounding clay and how my property is graded. My beds aren't much more than 8-10" but they have many square feet of open drainage around the edges which makes a world of difference.

The potential bath tub affect was my concern. But why I'd keep some of the clay in it in an attempt to help it drain better. I also just thought, what if I don't remove any of the clay I till up. Instead mix it up with material like I'd use in a raised bed but then use all of it to make the bed slightly mounded raising the plants up higher in it. Putting them farther away from the transitional layer that I would have to worry about creating a perched water table.

 

[ysrgrathe]

I don't think the composition of the amended soil is the problem; the water needs to go somewhere. If your clay is too saturated / poorly draining then the water will just stay in the hole until it is slowly absorbed. This might be fine for some plants but pines for example probably aren't going to like it.

What I'd suggest is dig a hole, fill it with water, let it drain completely away and fill it again. If it drains quickly, you'll have no problems. If you still have a bucket of water hours later, that's pretty much what your amended bed will be after a good rain.

 

[herzausstahl]

My idea with using half the original soil was that it would help it drain similiar to the surrounding soil, not just form a pool in the ground. At the same time I might just do 6-8" tall raised beds to help me not overplant the area like the current ground growing section I have.

 

[timetravel_0]

If I dig holes in my yard, I get the "bucket-o-water" effect. Too much clay, and it sits for a while. I intentionally allow roots to escape by piling native dirt up around the base of 5g nursery pots. If the roots want to extend into the native soil (which they do), great! But the entire root mass is not sitting in saturated water all the time- the pots either get cactus soil or a 50/50 mix of composted bark and perlite or pumice (depending on which I have on hand).

For your setup, you may just want to run raised bed from the ground level, up. This way water can escape out the side of your boards. Or, you could run a gravel trough covered by weed cloth underneath.

 

[herzausstahl]

If I dig holes in my yard, I get the "bucket-o-water" effect. Too much clay, and it sits for a while. I intentionally allow roots to escape by piling native dirt up around the base of 5g nursery pots. If the roots want to extend into the native soil (which they do), great! But the entire root mass is not sitting in saturated water all the time- the pots either get cactus soil or a 50/50 mix of composted bark and perlite or pumice (depending on which I have on hand).

For your setup, you may just want to run raised bed from the ground level, up. This way water can escape out the side of your boards. Or, you could run a gravel trough covered by weed cloth underneath.

I've thought of going your route too. That way you can cut the "escape" roots & still have a root mass. Do you find a lot of circular roots in the 5 gallon nursery cans with your method?

 

[Anthony]

Just finished helping build a temporary trough [ about 18 inches high] on clay ground.
Scrap teak, from the saw mill.
It was filled with 1" gravel to 4 inches and then ground up bamboo, avocado leaves and finally 6 inches
good old soil from bonsai mixes.

This one is tomatoes.

We use grow troughs for the bonsai. Basically concrete blocks, plastered and with drainage pipes
set on a concrete base. About 2 feet tall around 12 inches wide..
Soil is rapid draining and will grow anything like a beast.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[timetravel_0]

I've thought of going your route too. That way you can cut the "escape" roots & still have a root mass. Do you find a lot of circular roots in the 5 gallon nursery cans with your method?

As long as they haven't spent much time in a container (in a normal orientation), no. A few wiggles, and then out the bottom of the pot. I started the experiment with an Elm and a Ficus for two years. The Ficus had to be cut and come inside for our winter. The Elm grew the start of a nice base, but the Ficus didn't grow any thicker than a similar plant (same species) in a 8" bulb pan- just taller. This year I've expanded with a Dwarf Pomegranate, Sycamore, Olive, Cork Bark Elm, Hokkaido Elm, and a Grape in the same manner.

Ideally these are all plants that can take a dramatic root reduction. Also, this produces some interesting root cuttings too- be prepared for that (I wasn't when I had to move the Elm this past end of Winter).

 

[timetravel_0]

Just finished helping build a temporary trough [ about 18 inches high] on clay ground.
Scrap teak, from the saw mill.
It was filled with 1" gravel to 4 inches and then ground up bamboo, avocado leaves and finally 6 inches
good old soil from bonsai mixes.

This one is tomatoes.

I was told the term "lasagna gardening", I use a layer of composted bark with a layer of Fox Farms Ocean Forest on top all contained in a 4' diameter kiddie pool. Two of them make up our vegetable garden with carrots, lettuce, tomatoes, and water melon. We tried green beans, but they are hard to get to harvest with the seclusion of pollinators. It worked very well for zucchini, I'm just not a big fan of that vegetable.

Like you said, it drains very fast for being a heavily organic soil.

Internet searches turn up much more complex schemes involving layers of newspaper, grass clipping, all sorts of things.

 

[Anthony]

Stay away from printed paper or just paper on the whole, the ink and other compounds can be toxic.
Never take anything from near highways [ 50 feet away at least ]

 

[herzausstahl]

Just finished helping build a temporary trough [ about 18 inches high] on clay ground.
Scrap teak, from the saw mill.
It was filled with 1" gravel to 4 inches and then ground up bamboo, avocado leaves and finally 6 inches
good old soil from bonsai mixes.

This one is tomatoes.

We use grow troughs for the bonsai. Basically concrete blocks, plastered and with drainage pipes
set on a concrete base. About 2 feet tall around 12 inches wide..
Soil is rapid draining and will grow anything like a beast.
Good Day
Anthony

Interesting set up Anthony. Drainage pipes set in the gravel since it's on concrete? Do you have any trouble digging the trees out? Do the roots spread far into the other layers making it hard to get enough roots at collection time?

 

[cbroad]

I remember reading an article from Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks about cubic yards and yards of old potting soil growing (I think) escaped or volunteered trees, and him being amazed about how well and how fast these plants grew. I think he said you could almost pull these trees up by your hand. I don't know why you couldn't do that with a raised bed, might be expensive but could be worth it in the long run...

 

[herzausstahl]

I remember reading an article from Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks about cubic yards and yards of old potting soil growing (I think) escaped or volunteered trees, and him being amazed about how well and how fast these plants grew. I think he said you could almost pull these trees up by your hand. I don't know why you couldn't do that with a raised bed, might be expensive but could be worth it in the long run...

This one http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/growfast.htm

 

[Anthony]

@herzausstahl ,

remember to use the @ with my name to let me know if you want a response.

Simple, plant tree in a colander and if need be on a tile in the colander for root distribution.
Allow the plant to settle into the colander, and then plant in the growing bed.

When digging up a year or three later, all you have to do is trim around the colander.
Then leave the plant in the colander for 4 to 6 months as it regains it's feeder roots.
Safer than just digging out a plant.

Next year, transfer, if trunk size is what you want, into an oversized plastic bonsai pot.
[ we get ours from Dallas Bonsai on Amazon ]

Yes drainage pipes to do just that.
Good Day
Anthony

* Remember in the ground growing stage you can train 6 branches easily.
The first branch is the one for extension, but think and you will figure it out.

If you are on the ground, get a cushion and sit on the ground or lie on your tummy on an exercise mat.