Green Prince Cedar of Lebanon Cascade
- Thread starter grouper52
- Start date
ghues
Omono
Thanks Rockm, Vance..... I do appreciate your advise as well as Will’s expertise.
Rockm as far as what draws me into the composition when I view a world class bonsai;
With most that I view, I look at the entire image not any specific part of the tree, image or landscape. If the overall look appears or resonates one of a struggle, age or a possible landscape, then I like it.
However, I have seen some trees that reflect a tree in a pasture/field and again it’s the overall appearance my eyes are drawn too, not the nebari, the crown etc. It reminds me of something I've seen.... a bonsai that looks like a tree.
Perhaps as I acquire more knowledge and experience I will look at them differently and from a different more critical aspect.
Cheers and thanks again.
Rockm as far as what draws me into the composition when I view a world class bonsai;
With most that I view, I look at the entire image not any specific part of the tree, image or landscape. If the overall look appears or resonates one of a struggle, age or a possible landscape, then I like it.
However, I have seen some trees that reflect a tree in a pasture/field and again it’s the overall appearance my eyes are drawn too, not the nebari, the crown etc. It reminds me of something I've seen.... a bonsai that looks like a tree.
Perhaps as I acquire more knowledge and experience I will look at them differently and from a different more critical aspect.
Cheers and thanks again.
Ang3lfir3
Omono
just wait until you have the chance to see trees that look like bonsai you have seen...
@Will I love this tree always have...
@ghues As Dan says "Show me a great trunk... I can grow a top". great bases are one way to guarantee a great result. Without it you rely on some other aspect of the tree to be powerful enough to draw the viewer in.
As you can see here Will has chosen to see the tree for what it is.... and make the best of its best assets...
grouper52
Masterpiece
Here are the little surface roots and the rather bland trunk on this guy. Not the most hopeless base on a tree, and perhaps all that’s really needed to make this a level above SIAP status, but won’t win any awards most likely. It could prove interesting, or perhaps a little cavalier and risky depending on one’s perspective, to attempt to girdle the thick section of trunk below these exposed roots and let them take over as an exposed base, or to use the squirrel-meal scar to create some interest with a more extensive deadwood feature, but at this point I don’t feel compelled to get out the tools.
My own thoughts about the importance of nebari are rather mixed. Everything else being equal, I think it improves a tree for there to be at least something going on down there, but I think, perhaps, it has been carried too far these days. It almost seems a fetish with some people these days, perhaps overvalued and overemphasized, when a more balanced view would consider more the harmony of the overall tree. Yamadori seldom have decent nebari, and yet often look quite stunning. The many Chinese albums I have, featuring hundreds of the most beautiful bonsai in the world, often have quite subtle and understated nebari, and with a number of their cascades I see no nebari at all from the viewpoint of the photos. The same with an older book of Japanese masterpieces I have. So, like many things in bonsai, changeable fashions seem to dictate our tastes if we let them, and we lose sight of the fact that they are mere fashion.
The circular reasoning of judging adds to this: If I understand correctly, it has been decided that nebari are more important than other aspects of the tree, so a sizable proportion of the total points are devoted to the nebari, giving it extra weight. Therefore, no tree without nebari that emulate the current fashion or consensus will amass a winning score, leading to the conclusion that all great bonsai have a certain type of nebari, which then reinforces the point where we started - that the nebari are more important than other aspects of the tree. Round we go, and they all look alike, and no one else need apply. Yawn. Makes me glad to be a hobbyist who doesn’t have to worry about such things.
A quote from Dan Robinson says it much better than I ever could:
“It’s a difficult thing, trying to teach certain people who want to analyze this art form down to some sort of formula which will lead to perfection. Perfection is always a state of mind, a judgement formed on the basis of prior experiences: if it comes close to that, which I’ve seen before, it must be good. Well, maybe so, but that’s the antithesis of creativity, because creativity means something new. And so it isn’t very creative to make it be perfect by some scale that someone has articulated. What might be more perfect, if you’re more interested in the natural look of things, is that you’ve got something that no one has seen before, and yet it has a reasonableness about it in terms of the natural need to survive under these miniaturized conditions.”
My own thoughts about the importance of nebari are rather mixed. Everything else being equal, I think it improves a tree for there to be at least something going on down there, but I think, perhaps, it has been carried too far these days. It almost seems a fetish with some people these days, perhaps overvalued and overemphasized, when a more balanced view would consider more the harmony of the overall tree. Yamadori seldom have decent nebari, and yet often look quite stunning. The many Chinese albums I have, featuring hundreds of the most beautiful bonsai in the world, often have quite subtle and understated nebari, and with a number of their cascades I see no nebari at all from the viewpoint of the photos. The same with an older book of Japanese masterpieces I have. So, like many things in bonsai, changeable fashions seem to dictate our tastes if we let them, and we lose sight of the fact that they are mere fashion.
The circular reasoning of judging adds to this: If I understand correctly, it has been decided that nebari are more important than other aspects of the tree, so a sizable proportion of the total points are devoted to the nebari, giving it extra weight. Therefore, no tree without nebari that emulate the current fashion or consensus will amass a winning score, leading to the conclusion that all great bonsai have a certain type of nebari, which then reinforces the point where we started - that the nebari are more important than other aspects of the tree. Round we go, and they all look alike, and no one else need apply. Yawn. Makes me glad to be a hobbyist who doesn’t have to worry about such things.
A quote from Dan Robinson says it much better than I ever could:
“It’s a difficult thing, trying to teach certain people who want to analyze this art form down to some sort of formula which will lead to perfection. Perfection is always a state of mind, a judgement formed on the basis of prior experiences: if it comes close to that, which I’ve seen before, it must be good. Well, maybe so, but that’s the antithesis of creativity, because creativity means something new. And so it isn’t very creative to make it be perfect by some scale that someone has articulated. What might be more perfect, if you’re more interested in the natural look of things, is that you’ve got something that no one has seen before, and yet it has a reasonableness about it in terms of the natural need to survive under these miniaturized conditions.”
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grouper52
Masterpiece
Funny you should ask . . . most of the cascade died back over the past several winters, such that it was not salvageable stylistically, so I threw it back in the ground a few weeks ago. Given that these trees grows about 1/4" per year, and given that I'm 60, I'll probably dig up and give away what's left if it regains some vigor over the next few years.
As with so many trees, I have found it important to simply enjoy them while they're looking good and staying healthy, because it may not last.
Comes with the territory, unfortunately.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I know a "commercial guy" in Mount Vernon that grows and sells these - I don't know if he is to whom you refer. Mine and his inventory (as of last fall) is on Deodar root stock. Graft is low and difficult to discern on my little/young one.
grouper52
Masterpiece
That's nice to know. Thanks. I probably got mine from that guy - right by the freeway?
Do they grow any faster on the Deodar stock? It would be great if they did.
thank you for the updates and I am sorry to hear that it was so nice looking.
Since it seems you have had you share of experience with cedars would you mind taking a look at http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7750-bare-rooting-cedar-possible maybe you can help me out?
I have 2 Cedrus Libani that I am afraid to repot
thanks
Since it seems you have had you share of experience with cedars would you mind taking a look at http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7750-bare-rooting-cedar-possible maybe you can help me out?
I have 2 Cedrus Libani that I am afraid to repot
thanks
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Yep, right by the Freeway.
My understanding is that Deodar roots just make it more a robust tree, so sudden death like yours suffered is less likely. With a stronger root system, though, it seems reasonable to expect growth to be somewhat faster - maybe 5/16ths of an inch a year instead of 1/4 (even though that's 25% faster, it is still pretty slow!!).
grouper52
Masterpiece
thank you for the updates and I am sorry to hear that it was so nice looking.
Since it seems you have had you share of experience with cedars would you mind taking a look at http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7750-bare-rooting-cedar-possible maybe you can help me out?
I have 2 Cedrus Libani that I am afraid to repot
thanks
I don't know that I will be of help. I don't really have much experience with true cedars, and don't know anyone who does. They seem a bit too finicky for my tastes - my approach, FWIW, is to just offer good care in general to all my trees, same watering/soil/light/fertilizing, and if they are much more high maintenance than that they just weed themselves of my collection by dying. There's a lot of trees that look like they ought to have a great deal of potential as bonsai, but seem to constantly disappoint, and I now stay away from them. Cedars are approaching that subset.
In terms of repotting techniques, I might vary this approach a wee bit until I know a species better, but if I'm not familiar with how they will react I might possibly bare root parts of it and leave other parts with native soil the first few re-pottings, but I'm even doing that less and less.
OTOH, where I live, it's hard to kill things, so your milage may vary.
