favorite Elm. to trim or not to trim? also tracking progress...

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Hey everyone! another great day here in upstate NY, hope everyone's having a fine afternoon!

I figured I would make my own thread in the proper section to show our Chinese Elm (U.P.)

This thing has been grown indoors with lots of light and great conditions for the last month or so, as some of you may know. It has just freakin EXPLODED, so I really see what you guys mean when you talk about the growth rate on elms. I posted before and after shots in another thread after one month of growth, and the general consensus seems to be that this tree is doing GREAT and growing very rapidly.

I'm kind of wondering, suppose this Elm just keep pumping out new growth every day (don't get we wrong, I pick/fall off a good 5-6 leaves a day) but the new growth is just way more powerful. So I know that everyone says it will drop all of its leaves, and you know, If I hadn't had it growing indoors under such intense light and daily to every other day watering (YES, it dries out that quick, not over watering) ..IT WOULD HAVE lost all of its leaves at the rate of 5-6 a day falling off, but Its living in the sunny summer time I have re created...a little confusing, but lets suppose it just keeps rocking out a TON more foliage than its losing...this brings me to my main question....

To trim, or not to trim...THAT, is the question. haha. Now, It would LOOK better with a trim, its pretty all over the place, and the art shaped trunk is barely visible, but right now I'm not out for looks...I'm out for long term results with this tree. I REALLY want to get that fine fine intricate branching.

So, do I do the ol' wait for 6-8 sets of leaves and trim back to 2 or 3? or do I just keep let this grow even more, and THEN trim? I feel like trimming every month or so (at this rate!) MAY be the way to go. But, hey what do I know?! I know more trimming should equate to finer branching, right? This is really what I need to know. At this rate, how often to trim?

Please don't flame me for the way I'm doing things. I'm out to take EVERY piece of advice that I can realistically put into use given my situation. I know I'm a little unconventional with the way I'm doing things FOR RIGHT NOW! ...but I'm still a super noob and I'm doing my absolute best to learn from all of you wizzi'. Plus the results/growth are speaking for itself. (for now anyway!) I'm SO willing to learn, I'm not hard headed about taking advice one BIT, I just have to be able to apply it without hurting my trees.

onto some pics. The first pic is from a month ago when I took the tree home. the rest are from yesterday. I also took a pic of the small pile that I pluck/clean up almost every day. Although, the pile of leaves in this pic is from 2 days unchecked, and sometimes its only 2-3 a day, depends. But they ARE falling.

Thanks so much guys!

-Jason-

1 MONTH AGO:

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NOW

 

[0soyoung]

Trees are fed by the sugars produced in the hardened foliage. If one is constantly trimming off the new growth, the tree is 'weakened' - it will have to use some of its starch reserves to grow, meaning its growth will become less vigorous. One might want this condition get short(er) internodes. Likewise the trunk and branches will not thicken so much.

Letting shoots 'run' and then cutting back boosts the health and vigor of the tree (figurative 'energy') which is what one wants for development of a thick trunk and thick branches as well as for having a healthy tree. Of course, this is because the tree will have lots of hardened foliage producing 'food for growth'.

So, what one does depends upon ones aims. Keep in mind that once nodes/inter-nodes are set they are permanent (unless the branch is removed from the tree). Hence, at some point in development you will likely want to slow your tree down to get the inter-node lenths you want and then subsequently you will 'let it go wild' to thicken or simply for its health.

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

That's another one of those bad habits I need to shake as an organic indoor/hydroponic grower...I gotta stop thinking of everything as a fast growing crop where you are aiming for yield and quality, plant structure is probably LEAST important as long as you are yielding as much as possible in each case, and the structure is hardy enough to hold fruit.

I gotta keep reminding myself over and over that Im dealing with TREES now...and they are quite a bit different than my Corno Di Toro sweet Peppers or my Brandywine Tomatoes!!! We are talking TREES here...TREEEEEESS...just gotta keep saying it!!

Thank you for that quick refresher on basic botany, I should know better. Like I said, habits I need to shake. Its already shaking . Great info there, great things to keep in mind for the long term aspect of it...another thing that differs from my norm as an indoor grower, long term aspect.

What is everyones opinion based on the goals I should have in mind. I suppose I really just want to focus on keeping the future foliage pads close to the trunk. Right now, its still so new, we haven't even decided how we are going to style it...but now that its FILLED IN w some foliage now, I can start to look closer and consider these things. For right now, internodal space should be ideal, similar to outside due to the daylight spectrum, intensity and bulb distance from the tops of the trees. Really though, I suppose Im looking to work toward forming dense twiggy foliage pads...is that "ramification"?? ..I just wanna make sure I'm using that term correctly lol.

If we do continue to grow the Chinese Elms indoors long-term, then eventually (and Im not sure when) I feel like I might want to switch over to the LED panel...tightest and bushiest growth possible indoors, with any plant or tree. Its pretty incredible. But BEAMING sun light all day long has to be the best ! That's why I will make sure I utilize the sun and keep my babies outside for the summers+

I have a picture of a 120-150 year old Elm, same species, that I took when I went to my Bonsai guys greenhouse...I'll post it up later. He has 2-3 trees that are 120 year old at least. This is the type of clustering Im, well, my great great grand kids will be looking forward to enjoying! lol

 

[KennedyMarx]

I wouldn't cut it back at all while indoors. Maybe if the top gets too close to your light. You can cut it back when it goes outside.

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-i-discovered-hedge-pruning-method.html

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013/02/refurbishing-japanese-maple-hedge.html



http://evergreengardenworks.com/pruning2.htm

http://evergreengardenworks.com/pruning.htm

 

[sorce]

Walter Palls hedge cutting method is definitely worth a read.

The first pic shows a lot of old foilage up top. The blue dull green.

First. Are those the leaves that are dropping?

Also. A lot more foilage up top than down low. If most of that growth is from up there, you may end up with a pretty nasty knob. And it will be shading out the bottom.

I would go through and remove all of that dull foilage. And any lil twiggettes from the trunk that arent gonna become anything. Again, anything on the insides of curves.

Yellow circle looks to be a bulge from where the orange line branches emerge very close to each other on the trunk. This is not going to get any better with all that top growth. One or two of those branches may have to go. Id keep the big back one,

The green line is where id wire up a bottom. Branch to bring it closer to the light and let it go bonkers. Lightly wire\guy wire top stuff away from it and the other bottom. You want "bigger peppers" down there!

Once you clean up the basic useless stuff, and can see inside a bit, have at it!
Prune the s#@t out of it and set the beginnings of your future intentions.
It will be easier to keep balanced then when you know what should be where, and where you are taking it.

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Hey Cool Funk Brother,
Jason,

how about a front on shot showing the zone from the root to the top, so you can look at designing that elm.

Well slap me silly
Anthony

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Kennedy and Sorce, great info guys. I may just trim one or 2 of the branches that JUT right out of the tree like half a foot for now...Anthony, its hard to get a good view of the trunk unless I trim it up pretty well.

Sorce - I like your Idea alot. I may eventually go that route. Got all the time in the world to consider right?

only thing I was worried about is if I let the growth go wild and crazy, if it would be harder to bring a tight structure back in later...but thinking about it some more, it shouldnt make any difference.

 

[sorce]

Trunk. Branches. Ramification.

You should be able to cut back 2-3 times a year for ramification AFTER your initial branches are sized and placed.

Sorce

 

[jk_lewis]

This isn't really what you asked, and others have said what is necessary, but if this were my tree, I'd recognize the complete lack of taper after that first huge bend and chop it as marked just after the bend. Then, I'd repot and change the planting angle so the trunk doesn't go straight up from the soil line and grow out a new top. (I'd probably also chop that low branch after it has served its purpose as a sacrifice branch.

In a couple of years, you might have the makings of a nice elm.

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

This isn't really what you asked, and others have said what is necessary, but if this were my tree, I'd recognize the complete lack of taper after that first huge bend and chop it as marked just after the bend. Then, I'd repot and change the planting angle so the trunk doesn't go straight up from the soil line and grow out a new top. (I'd probably also chop that low branch after it has served its purpose as a sacrifice branch.

In a couple of years, you might have the makings of a nice elm.

It has been repotted since that picture you re posted. based off the new pics, or old, I guess the Tree has the same shape still...how would you go about changing the planting angle? just lay the pot down? or use a wedge?

thanks!