Estonio - This is not a contest Tree

[Cristian D.]

Nice tree Estonio!
Where did you bought it, is it from NouGarden?
Thanks!

 

[Estonio]

Where did you bought it, is it from NouGarden?

thanks. 16 Euros in Leroy merlin

 

[Estonio]

Repot to a larger nursery pot or larger box or colander in spring

Considering I reppotted it already this spring, to Repot it again won't be actually a step back as it will weak the plant? Or do you have in mind just to Repot without touching the new roots?
Also you are commenting about using a larger pot. I was reading lately from @Walter Pall that the best is to use smallest possible training container... Any thoughts here? https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/repotting-big-maple.35178/post-596052

Thanks!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Considering I reppotted it already this spring, to Repot it again won't be actually a step back as it will weak the plant? Or do you have in mind just to Repot without touching the new roots?
Also you are commenting about using a larger pot. I was reading lately from @Walter Pall that the best is to use smallest possible training container... Any thoughts here? https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/repotting-big-maple.35178/post-596052

Thanks!

Walter Pall's comment is good, he is right. BUT there are ''crossed purposes'', if your goal is to grow a larger trunk as rapidly as possible, one should move to a larger container to keep the growth rapid. Repotting after about 12 months to step into a larger pot is not a big stress if you don't do a lot of root reduction at the same time. Do not repot more frequently than once every 12 months. If the root have not filled the pot by next year you can leave it a second year. But to thicken a trunk you are trying to get rapid growth. Repotting would be to keep growth rapid.

 

[Estonio]

Current aspect after a bit of wiring. This will be going more towards a slanting design..

Still need to decide the branch distribution. So far I'm clear only about ichi which will be first one in the left.

 

[Adair M]

A couple of points:

1). You planted this in a colander. That’s not a good choice for a maple. I know “planting in a colander” is popular, but it’s a technique for pines. NOT for maples! Plant your maple in a wider, shallower container. (Box or pot). You’ll get better roots.

2). Up at the top of your tree, you have many branches that are thicker than those down lower. That’s a problem. You want thicker branches low, and smaller branches at the top. You can help correct this by doing two things: let the bottom branches grow unchecked, don’t pinch them when they start to grow. And, unfortunately, you need to completely remove several of the larger branches up in the apex. Keep little twigs, remove heavy branches. If you don’t, the tree will get more and more top heavy.

 

[Estonio]

A couple of points:

1). You planted this in a colander. That’s not a good choice for a maple. I know “planting in a colander” is popular, but it’s a technique for pines. NOT for maples! Plant your maple in a wider, shallower container. (Box or pot). You’ll get better roots.

2). Up at the top of your tree, you have many branches that are thicker than those down lower. That’s a problem. You want thicker branches low, and smaller branches at the top. You can help correct this by doing two things: let the bottom branches grow unchecked, don’t pinch them when they start to grow. And, unfortunately, you need to completely remove several of the larger branches up in the apex. Keep little twigs, remove heavy branches. If you don’t, the tree will get more and more top heavy.

Hi, thank you for commenting.

First time I hear colander is a technic only for pines. What are the arguments for this?

To your second point. Yes, I'm aware and I'm letting low branches grow and upper ones I will be pinching them during growing season or remove them once in early spring bit thicker ones not now or scars will take longer to cure.

 

[Adair M]

Hi, thank you for commenting.

First time I hear colander is a technic only for pines. What are the arguments for this?

To your second point. Yes, I'm aware and I'm letting low branches grow and upper ones I will be pinching them during growing season or remove them once in early spring bit thicker ones not now or scars will take longer to cure.

Using a colander: the air pruning effect. The holes in the colander allows the soil to dry out faster. Roots grow to find moisture. When they hit the dry soil, or even the holes at the colander, they are supposed to back bud closer to the trunk. Right?

Well, you said yourself you had difficulty maintaning proper moisture on your tree. Deciduous trees need more moisture than conifers. So why put it in a container that is specifically designed to make it less water retentive?

Pines don’t like to be repotted very often. Deciduous trees don’t seem to mind it as much, and can be repotted every year. The colander technique allows you to grow a pine in a container for several years and you don’t get circling roots as it backbud a closer to the trunk. A maple, you can cut off the circling roots each year when you repot.

Maples and most deciduous look best in relatively shallow pots. Colanders are deep.

Wider, shallow pots retain more water than narrow deep pots. The wide and shallow work better for deciduous. See the thread “Ebihara Maples” by @markyscott for how best to develop root systems for maples.

The whole idea for growing trees in colanders came from a magazine article reprinted in Bonsai Today #20, which was about how to grow shohin bonsai from seed. The colander technique allowed him to keep the root system small so he could eventually put the tree in a small shohin pot. Growing pines in the ground is MUCH faster, but it creates large roots that then won’t fit in a shohin pot.

The bonsai community has taken this idea and mis-applied it to all species and situations. Colanders work well for growing shohin pines. But not very well for most other applications.

 

[Estonio]

Using a colander: the air pruning effect. The holes in the colander allows the soil to dry out faster. Roots grow to find moisture. When they hit the dry soil, or even the holes at the colander, they are supposed to back bud closer to the trunk. Right

Correct and the same can be applicable to pines or decidious.

Well, you said yourself you had difficulty maintaning proper moisture on your tree. Deciduous trees need more moisture than conifers. So why put it in a container that is specifically designed to make it less water retentive?

And that's why I added some more water retaining soil besides akadame and kyriu so the colander wouldn't be a problem knowing this year I might have some problems same days watering.

Maples and most deciduous look best in relatively shallow pots. Colanders are deep.

Are you talking here about subjective aspect? about what looks better? I don't think colander looks beautiful in any tree.

Colanders work well for growing shohin pines. But not very well for most other applications

Imagine I have possibilities to water every day as much as needed what would be the problem? Air and sun will do the pruning a lot of small roots would grow from the back, something that wouldn't happen if not in a colander.

I'm sorry but it sounds to me very simplistic and inaccurate statement to say colander technic is only valid for pines. If you would say that the most out of this technic can be obtained in pines, I could buy it. But saying it is only applicable to pines because of physiological reasons explained, still don't make much sense to me

 

[markyscott]

Correct and the same can be applicable to pines or decidious.



And that's why I added some more water retaining soil besides akadame and kyriu so the colander wouldn't be a problem knowing this year I might have some problems same days watering.


Are you talking here about subjective aspect? about what looks better? I don't think colander looks beautiful in any tree.



Imagine I have possibilities to water every day as much as needed what would be the problem? Air and sun will do the pruning a lot of small roots would grow from the back, something that wouldn't happen if not in a colander.

I'm sorry but it sounds to me very simplistic and inaccurate statement to say colander technic is only valid for pines. If you would say that the most out of this technic can be obtained in pines, I could buy it. But saying it is only applicable to pines because of physiological reasons explained, still don't make much sense to me

Perhaps this post will help. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/w...han-air-pruning-pots.24943/page-2#post-392386

But no one is saying to not use them. If it makes you happy, then do so. I just personally believe that the main benefit is to increase the time between repotting pines by eliminating encircling roots. Since good repotting techniques do this for deciduous trees, I see no reason to use them. With a shallow, wide container, you can let the roots run and create nebari, something that cannot be done with a colander.

Why do you think they’re helpful?

S

 

[Adair M]

Correct and the same can be applicable to pines or decidious.



And that's why I added some more water retaining soil besides akadame and kyriu so the colander wouldn't be a problem knowing this year I might have some problems same days watering.


Are you talking here about subjective aspect? about what looks better? I don't think colander looks beautiful in any tree.



Imagine I have possibilities to water every day as much as needed what would be the problem? Air and sun will do the pruning a lot of small roots would grow from the back, something that wouldn't happen if not in a colander.

I'm sorry but it sounds to me very simplistic and inaccurate statement to say colander technic is only valid for pines. If you would say that the most out of this technic can be obtained in pines, I could buy it. But saying it is only applicable to pines because of physiological reasons explained, still don't make much sense to me

Not for aesthetics, a deep pot encourages roots to grow down. For deciduous, you want the roots to go out, in a radial direction.

Sorry, but it sounds like you have no actual experience with bonsai if you say that air and sun will do the pruning of roots.

The way to develop a good root system for deciduous trees is to repot them every year or at least every other year. When you repot them, you bare root them, straighten out or remove any crossing roots, shorten heavy roots, remove any roots growing straight down (or straight up, but those are rare), balance the root system so that all side are equal strength, take corrective measures if there is a “bald” spot on the nebari by cutting windows or adding a root graft.

I cited where the colander method was first published in English. And it was for Japanese Black Pines. Do you have any citations of any reputable publication where colanders are recommended for deciduous trees?

 

[markyscott]

Current aspect after a bit of wiring. This will be going more towards a slanting design..

Still need to decide the branch distribution. So far I'm clear only about ichi which will be first one in the left. View attachment 218480

I know the colander wasn’t your question. Use it if you like it.

My thoughts on the tree - my focus at this stage of development is the trunk and the nebari.

In terms of the trunk, I’d say that a straight trunk doesn’t lend itself easily to a slant style. Although it’s certainly possible to develop a slant style tree with a straight trunk, you’re definitely not restricted to that and it has less interest than one with some movement. Is that the look you’re trying to go for? If it were mine, I might be either thinking of a different style or starting some trunk work.

The other issue you need to address is the lack of nebari. You already know my thoughts on that - I would get it out of the colander, remove any downward growing roots. Let the surface roots run long and strong to get cell division at the point where the roots meet the trunk.

S

 

[Estonio]

Thank you Mark for taking the time and commenting.

I know the colander wasn’t your question. Use it if you like it.

You are right. But then I got curious about the physiological background of such affirmation. I'm not trying to challenge just trying to learn what is behind that

In terms of the trunk, I’d say that a straight trunk doesn’t lend itself easily to a slant style. Although it’s certainly possible to develop a slant style tree with a straight trunk, you’re definitely not restricted to that and it has less interest than one with some movement. Is that the look you’re trying to go for? If it were mine, I might be either thinking of a different style or starting some trunk work

My initial idea was to correct a bit the angle of planting to be not so slanting and do a Moyogi style cutting in early spring a part of the trunk to guide new growth to opposite direction and gain some curve in the trunk. In a bonsai course in my association the teacher said it would be better slanting style because of the already straight trunk. So that's why the change of the decision, but the decision is obviously mine and I appreciate experience of people who worked and designed Maples in the past and your experience is amazing.

What do you have in mind when saying you would start thinking about other style and some trunk work?

I saw months ago your post about ebahira maple and I saved in favourites. I was planning to use the wood for next repotting.

The other issue you need to address is the lack of nebari. You already know my thoughts on that - I would get it out of the colander, remove any downward growing roots. Let the surface roots run long and strong to get cell division at the point where the roots meet the trunk

I will do that in early spring with or without the wood at the bottom. It didn't grow much this season and I think there are not enough roots as to fill the colander so I thought about not cutting much thin well positioned roots in order to help and develop good growth during following season. Maybe in Maples this is not so significant...

Thanks again and regards

 

[markyscott]

You are right. But then I got curious about the physiological background of such affirmation. I'm not trying to challenge just trying to learn what is behind that

I appreciate that you’re open to a dialog on this - most people just get very defensive if anyone questions the use of colanders. “They are good - it is known” is generally the extent of the conversation.

There is a lot of science behind the use of air pots out of the nursery industry for which they were developed in order to eliminate encircling roots and decrease cull rates. They do work for that purpose, but the trade off is that the pots are much more expensive than are the standard nursery containers and their use resulted in slower top growth. As a result, they are really not used very often. Those conclusions are well documented in the links I sent to you previously. In terms of their use in bonsai, some of the early Bonsai Today articles about propagating black pine seedlings contained statements alluding to the use of colanders as something that would increase growth rates because they would allow for more frequent watering and, therefore, fertilization. These were just statements presented as fact without even anecdotal evidence to support them. In terms of hardwood trees, the reasoning goes - “if its good for pines, it must be good for deciduous trees”. Neither the proposition nor the corollary has ever been demonstrated, in my opinion. I can get my head around their use with pines to prevent encircling roots as those trees aren’t repotted that often and root problems are more difficult to correct. However, I don’t think that argument holds water with hardwood trees as they are repotted much more frequently and because they can tolerate much more drastic root reduction than pines. So I see little benefit with hardwoods and a lot of detriment. Since the root tips get killed when they hit the container walls, you can’t get that long run of surface root growth that will improve the nebari. So in short, I can see a reasonable, but unsupported, argument that there might be some benefit for growing pines. I see no benefit (perhaps even some detriment in terms of slower top growth and nebari development) to their use with deciduous hardwoods.

Hope that helps.

S

 

[Estonio]

Thank you @markyscott it does definitely help. I have some reasoning now that makes sense to me.. It is just that in Bonsai I have so many situations when I heard: you have to do this, you have to do that, this works, that doesn´t work, without taking any time to reasoning the why, and in many cases when asking for a more elaborated answer I get not any scientifical answer that sustains the statements so it personally doesn´t help me to progress and get better understanding on the different topics. I know @Adair M and you have a lot and good experience and it´s an advantage to me to learn from you. So thank you both for that. When in the future I will have a discussion about the pros and cons of colanders with someone else I will have more insights in order to have a constructive dialogue

You know in which secton of the forum this thread is posted and the topic of it, so the idea is to learn from people with more experience.

Leaving the colander topic aside, what about your thoughs on different style and work with the trunk you said you would do? Any thoughts you could share with me?

Thanks!

 

[Adair M]

I appreciate that you’re open to a dialog on this - most people just get very defensive if anyone questions the use of colanders. “They are good - it is known” is generally the extent of the conversation.

There is a lot of science behind the use of air pots out of the nursery industry for which they were developed in order to eliminate encircling roots and decrease cull rates. They do work for that purpose, but the trade off is that the pots are much more expensive than are the standard nursery containers and their use resulted in slower top growth. As a result, they are really not used very often. Those conclusions are well documented in the links I sent to you previously. In terms of their use in bonsai, some of the early Bonsai Today articles about propagating black pine seedlings contained statements alluding to the use of colanders as something that would increase growth rates because they would allow for more frequent watering and, therefore, fertilization. These were just statements presented as fact without even anecdotal evidence to support them. In terms of hardwood trees, the reasoning goes - “if its good for pines, it must be good for deciduous trees”. Neither the proposition nor the corollary has ever been demonstrated, in my opinion. I can get my head around their use with pines to prevent encircling roots as those trees aren’t repotted that often and root problems are more difficult to correct. However, I don’t think that argument holds water with hardwood trees as they are repotted much more frequently and because they can tolerate much more drastic root reduction than pines. So I see little benefit with hardwoods and a lot of detriment. Since the root tips get killed when they hit the container walls, you can’t get that long run of surface root growth that will improve the nebari. So in short, I can see a reasonable, but unsupported, argument that there might be some benefit for growing pines. I see no benefit (perhaps even some detriment in terms of slower top growth and nebari development) to their use with deciduous hardwoods.

Hope that helps.

S

Scott, you do have a way with words! I just give ‘me the straight no bullshit answer, you on the other hand can give ‘em a baffle them with bullshit response!

I guess that’s why you have the PhD, and I don’t!

By the way, my bench at Boon’s is bigger than yours!

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Correct and the same can be applicable to pines or decidious.



And that's why I added some more water retaining soil besides akadame and kyriu so the colander wouldn't be a problem knowing this year I might have some problems same days watering.


Are you talking here about subjective aspect? about what looks better? I don't think colander looks beautiful in any tree.



Imagine I have possibilities to water every day as much as needed what would be the problem? Air and sun will do the pruning a lot of small roots would grow from the back, something that wouldn't happen if not in a colander.

I'm sorry but it sounds to me very simplistic and inaccurate statement to say colander technic is only valid for pines. If you would say that the most out of this technic can be obtained in pines, I could buy it. But saying it is only applicable to pines because of physiological reasons explained, still don't make much sense to me

Colanders encourage downward growing roots that need to be removed prolonging development of nebari. If you want small roots just plant in good fine bonsai soil but some of what helps thicken trunks of deciduous trees is letting the roots run radial hence why most growing deciduous use Anderson flats instead of colanders. Some who ground grow bury their colanders to keep roots close to the root ball while letting some roots run but a 8-10 inch bulb pan would be better for root development than a colander on your tree and an Anderson flat better than a bulb pan. That being said use what ya got and correct what ya can as you go. BEAUTIFUL TREE by the way

 

[Estonio]

Colanders encourage downward growing roots that need to be removed prolonging development of nebari. If you want small roots just plant in good fine bonsai soil but some of what helps thicken trunks of deciduous trees is letting the roots run radial hence why most growing deciduous use Anderson flats instead of colanders. Some who ground grow bury their colanders to keep roots close to the root ball while letting some roots run but a 8-10 inch bulb pan would be better for root development than a colander on your tree and an Anderson flat better than a bulb pan. That being said use what ya got and correct what ya can as you go. BEAUTIFUL TREE by the way

Thank you for your comment, leaving the colander topic aside, I would like to know from @markyscott, yourself or any other some ideas for trunk work and style.

Regards

 

[Adair M]

Thank you for your comment, leaving the colander topic aside, I would like to know from @markyscott, yourself or any other some ideas for trunk work and style.

Regards

If that were my tree, I’d develop it as a single line (center trunk) broom style.

Something like this:

 

[markyscott]

My initial idea was to correct a bit the angle of planting to be not so slanting and do a Moyogi style cutting in early spring a part of the trunk to guide new growth to opposite direction and gain some curve in the trunk. In a bonsai course in my association the teacher said it would be better slanting style because of the already straight trunk. So that's why the change of the decision, but the decision is obviously mine and I appreciate experience of people who worked and designed Maples in the past and your experience is amazing.

What do you have in mind when saying you would start thinking about other style and some trunk work?

I saw months ago your post about ebahira maple and I saved in favourites. I was planning to use the wood for next repotting.

All that slanting style means to me is that the crown of the apex sits to one side or the other of the nebari. With a formal and informal upright trees or with broom style trees, the crown is above the base of the trunk. As with upright trees, how the trunk gets to one side or the other - a straight line or a curved one - is just a style preference. In general I find slanting trees with straight trunks to be pretty uninteresting personally.

But the good news is that you have a young tree - you can do anything you want at this stage of development, At this point and with a young tree, everything is malleable - my focus would be developing movement and taper unless I wanted to grow a formal upright tree or a broom. I hesitate to suggest styles to people because I’ve no idea about your level of experience. For example, I’ve personally always been a sucker for clumps when it comes to Japanese maples. You can get away with some fairly straight trunks as a part of those if you don’t want to chop it back. However, it would require that you let some of those branches extend and thread graft them to the base next season. If you’ve done that before, then that might be an approach to take with this tree. Or something like what Adair suggested. However, both suggestions would take some time to grow out and develop the trunk or trunks and are a rather radical restyling from what you have now.

All that said, if you’re still new to the hobby it might be better to enjoy what you have, focus on learning repotting, wiring and grafting techniques and just how to keep a tree healthy in a pot. You can improve this tree - if it were mine, I’d probably go with a more upright planting angle and go from there.

Scott