Does pruning only the very tips of Ume, cause better flowering on entire branch to tip?

[エドガー]

I just translated it using a proper Japanese dictionary word for word (I study Japanese occasionally), which is 100x more accurate than Google translator app and 1000x than YouTube CC translator, lol.

I’m also asking a few real Japanese friends (native and live there)... and also professional gardeners/horticulturalists in Japan.

I’ll get back when they reply.
But, from my dictionary translating so far... it is indeed a legit technique (one I’ve never heard of yet), to make flowering from base to tip (instead of just base of branch or center of tree).

Also, video says cut branch too much will only result in vigorous non-flower growth (which many already know, when pruning deciduous trees during dormancy... results in much vigor in spring from stored energy), and that super light, tip-pruning instead, during dormancy, promotes flowering.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I think what you are describing is the entirely typical flowering pattern of blooming, starting close to the trunk and continuing each in turn outward over some number of days, and there just being buds closer together closer to the trunk and perhaps there being more buds per each cluster in the clusters closer to the trunk. ?

 

[エドガー]

I think what you are describing is the entirely typical flowering pattern of blooming, starting close to the trunk and continuing each in turn outward over some number of days, and there just being buds closer together closer to the trunk and perhaps there being more buds per each cluster in the clusters closer to the trunk. ?

Kinda, but not really... The outer/tip buds usually never/rarely even bloom.

 

[AlainK]

Prunus incisa 'Kojo no mai'

The problem is that if in the genus "Prunus" many trees react in a somewhat similar way, it doesn't apply to all.

For instance, I heard that taking cuttings from "ume" is very hazardous, whereas on most other species I've tried, it's very easy.

I don't want to be too harsh, but to me it's like when someone posts a picture of a rotting oak to show you how a maple looks like.

 

[エドガー]

I got some replies from 2 different professional gardeners/horticulturalists in Japan (both are well known, respected and teach/lecture).

Keep in mind, in Japan, there are 3 different types of Ume, since they actually eat them there:
- Farm: Focuses on fruit yields. Structure made low and wide, for easy harvesting (usually vase or T style). Zero ornamental use.
- Garden/Niwaki (home or public): Purely ornamental use, both structure and flower location. Structure made tall, and slightly more narrow than farm style.
- Bonsai: Purely ornamental use, both structure and flower location.

Japanese gardener #1:
"True to what he says. But this video focuses on ume fruit yields and is not applicable to garden trees."

Japanese gardener #2:
"He is a farmer. He hates the loss of flowers and the loss of fruits. That's not how I prune."


Yes, the video is more farm-style and non-ornamental style of pruning.... but, at least, we have learned a legitimate technique in how to make an entire branch bloom all the way to the tip/outer-branch, if you ever needed/wanted to do so.

I will update with pics if I see any results in a few weeks.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Here are some pics to describe what I am talking about (random pics from Google)...

Notice how the blooms are always strongest on the lowest/base section of the new long branches (or more “center” of tree)... while the tips/outer parts of branches are much weaker (or sometimes the buds won’t even bloom).

It’s like the flower energy “fades” the further it is away from the trunk. Like it gets weaker and weaker, after the strongest flower that is first from the trunk.

I’m sure others with Ume have noticed this too (I sure have... every year).
And I think it’s what that Japanese video is describing and remedying.

Consider temperature effects; inner parts warm up faster and stay warm for a longer period of time and they will bud faster.
I take cuttings every year and keep them indoors in a vase where the opposite happens: they flower from the tips first. This is partially because of the cold water in the vase, the cold vase itself and the fact that the room is usually a bit warmer than the vase due to water evaporation.

 

[エドガー]

Consider temperature effects; inner parts warm up faster and stay warm for a longer period of time and they will bud faster.
I take cuttings every year and keep them indoors in a vase where the opposite happens: they flower from the tips first. This is partially because of the cold water in the vase, the cold vase itself and the fact that the room is usually a bit warmer than the vase due to water evaporation.

Good point! Never thought about the temperature... the center of tree is def warmer and more humid.

It could also be that the tips of the cuttings were cut

 

[leatherback]

but, at least, we have learned a legitimate technique in how to make an entire branch bloom all the way to the tip/outer-branch, if you ever needed/wanted to do so.

in a way, this is what is done in bonsai of course. You prune to a pleasing outline in winter. After flowering you prune back further for the structure.

 

[leatherback]

d they will bud faster.

was the point not that the buds on the whole branch develop, and not only a part (closer to the trunk)?

 

[エドガー]

The problem is that if in the genus "Prunus" many trees react in a somewhat similar way, it doesn't apply to all.

I don't want to be too harsh, but to me it's like when someone posts a picture of a rotting oak to show you how a maple looks like.

Exactly... this thread is venturing into "general" principles... like general cuttings and general flowering and general pruning.

Ume is completely different... so much so, that I had to give many written and picture examples of its' flowering pattern because people with no Ume experience do not know.


Of course general cuttings will bloom on the tip... it's only but a few inches long with a few buds and it's freshly cut and stressed out.

The replies are similar to something like, "my Pomegranate blooms at the tips all the time" ...of course it does... it's what it does.

 

[エドガー]

Yours is a different species altogether, it is a prunus incisa kojonomai, if I am not completely mistaken. The OP is talking about mume which are A LOT trickier to keep flowering and growing where you want to.

I have picked up some ideas from @Brian Van Fleet and @fredtruck over the years. Maybe they are able to shed some light / add some experience, ?

Exactly.

No more "general principles" replies please.

Reply only if you have experience with Ume / prunus mume species please.

 

[エドガー]

in a way, this is what is done in bonsai of course. You prune to a pleasing outline in winter. After flowering you prune back further for the structure.

Yes, of course.
Maybe that's why there are some Ume that bloom evenly to the tips (because they were pruned in winter) and other that do not (not pruned in winter).

But, the actual "cause&effect" of pruning the tips (or pruning in general in winter, like you've stated and is done in bonsai) being the sole cause of even blooming to the tips of Ume branches is what intrigues me, because it is never mentioned to be the very specific cause&effect of even blooming.

 

[fredtruck]

Peter Adams mentions cutting back a given branch to the first flowers, but that is mainly for aesthetic affect. This is not the same thing as you're describing.

 

[NaoTK]

I have a ume flower problem in Oregon. My father in law in Los Angeles grows hundreds of ume trees that all flower. I planted one in the ground 5 years ago in Oregon (and have several as bonsai) but I can never get it to flower more than a couple blooms. This tree is 10ft tall. It never drops its leaves and it leaves out before blooming here which seems odd to me considering our climate is similar to Japan's. It is the eating variety so it should make lots of flowers. Wondering if anyone in the PNW has a similar problem.

 

[Adair M]

Interesting. I have no experience growing Ume as a fruit tree. But I have managed several as bonsai. I have not pruned (tipped) my Ume as you described. My process is to let the new shoots grow in spring, then in Mid May, cut them back by about half. And remove the first couple leaves of each shoot.

When I do this, I get flowers at the base of every leaf. All the way out to the end. But, the ends have been clipped.

My speculation is that when I prune the new shoots in May, I’m removing the primary source of auxin. The growing tip. Auxin may (or may not) have something to do with flowering. @0soyoung can probably tell us. Under this scenario, the lack of auxin promotes flower buds.

The fruit spurs dont grow out vegetatively very much. There’s not a strong leader producing auxin. So, they’re allowed to flower. At least, that’s my guess! But again, it’s just a guess! 0soyoung I’m sure will come by and tell us all about the biology!

 

[0soyoung]

Flowering continues to have its mysteries, but it seems to be attributable to gibberellins and not auxin (a drop in auxin causes vegetative bud release).

The terminal leaves of a growing tip produces gibberellins and they (along with auxin) cause the shoot to extend/elongate = grow vegetatively. Flower bud set (i.e., triggering the irreversible metamorphosis of a vegetative bud into a flower bud) corresponds to a drop in gibberellins. There are commercial PGRs used in the fruit and flower industries. AFAIK these are all gibberellin inhibitors.

 

[TomB]

I have a ume flower problem in Oregon. My father in law in Los Angeles grows hundreds of ume trees that all flower. I planted one in the ground 5 years ago in Oregon (and have several as bonsai) but I can never get it to flower more than a couple blooms. This tree is 10ft tall. It never drops its leaves and it leaves out before blooming here which seems odd to me considering our climate is similar to Japan's. It is the eating variety so it should make lots of flowers. Wondering if anyone in the PNW has a similar problem.

I have a couple of in-ground trees, same size as yours or larger. One which was grown from a seedling behaved in a similar way - kept its leaves over winter, and didn't flower at all for 10+ years. Then over a period of years it gradually started to flower more and more each year, and to drop leaves. Leaves and flowers still appear at about the same time though. You may just have a relatively young tree, rather than a problem.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I had one I bought 14 years ago for my new house. It bloomed with a double flower beautifully for two years in the nursery pot, then I put it in the ground next to my bonsai display area which I thought would add a touch of class and give me a little shade on some of the benches. It never bloomed double flowers again and grew to be big as a house and I cut it down after about 6 years. Boo Hiss.

 

[Adair M]

Flowering continues to have its mysteries, but it seems to be attributable to gibberellins and not auxin (a drop in auxin causes vegetative bud release).

The terminal leaves of a growing tip produces gibberellins and they (along with auxin) cause the shoot to extend/elongate = grow vegetatively. Flower bud set (i.e., triggering the irreversible metamorphosis of a vegetative bud into a flower bud) corresponds to a drop in gibberellins. There are commercial PGRs used in the fruit and flower industries. AFAIK these are all gibberellin inhibitors.

“Gibberellins”... lol!!! I know you didn’t make this up, but, geez, what a funny name!

I knew you would know! So, in my post above, if we substitute the word “gibberellin” where I wrote “auxin”, we’re good!

Here’s one of my Shohin Ume that might provide some insight:



Last May, there were two weaker twigs I did not prune. Because I thought the tree was a bit weak, I left those alone. The branches I pruned have created flower buds. The ones I left alone have not created flower buds.

Coincidence?

 

[AlainK]

“Gibberellins”... lol!!!

Yeah, sounds a bit like "goblins", doesn't it ?

I have seeds soaking in GA3 (gibberellic acid) at the moment, will put them in a growing medium tomorrow morning...