Yeah, that’s what he says, but what is happening is the lower branches are getting shaded by the upper branches. And most trees are programmed to grow up, and abandon the low branches as they grow taller. To counter that, if we want to keep low branches, we have to thin the upper branches to allow sunlight to get down to the lower branches.
Do you water foliage? Or does it slow down the growth rate??
- Thread starter matcha_bonsai
- Start date
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
So, Let me get this right!
When it rains, the foliage gets wet. Right?
So this is slowing the growth of my trees.
Has nothing to do with them being trimmed to excess, kept in root constricting pots and manipulated to stay small.
Hmm!
When it rains, the foliage gets wet. Right?
So this is slowing the growth of my trees.
Has nothing to do with them being trimmed to excess, kept in root constricting pots and manipulated to stay small.
Hmm!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
There are a lot of things some of these masters claim to be true that are really opinions on their part based on a misinterpretation of their experiences/education and their teacher's experiences/education etc., or practiced error over time disguising itself as dogma. Here is a short list of some of the opinions preached as graven in stone: You cannot/shouldn't pinch a Juniper, Akadama is a great soil additive, you cannot use any organics in a bonsai soil mix. You need to do your repotting in the early Spring. You cannot/shouldn't repot in the summer. You cannot/shouldn't get the foliar mass wet. You must use copper wire to do conifers. You cannot use aluminum at all on anything. All of these things can be ignored and done contrary to, but you have to have alternatives.
Vance, there’s a difference between “dogma” and “best practices”.
There’s no absolute rule about any of those things. However, some things work better than others. All of us strive to do the best we can given the resources we have available. At least I would hope so.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Bizarre thinking. Works the same as the upper & outer branches dying instead of the inner and lower branches on trees because the outer & upper leaves get all the rain. Just like the Rainforest and jungle... Control freaks can't stop.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The strict adherence to a lot of these things have created an atmosphere of superiority and a do it my way or go away you fool mind set.
BonsaiDawg
Yamadori
Well said. There is a difference Vance.
When teaching technique, there is a “this is how it’s done” approach. The student then needs to practice it until it become ingrained.
it’s much easier to teach a beginner a technique than someone who is more experienced but has developed poor practices. The experienced person has to“unlearn” the poor practice.
I used to teach tennis. Someone brand new to the game could develop good form quickly with proper instruction. The people who had been playing for a while were harder to fix. They had “muscle memory” working against them.
That’s not a perfect analogy, but you get my point.
some things are simply indisputable: copper wire IS BETTER for conifers than aluminum. Can aluminum be used? Certainly. You just have to accept it’s shortcomings if you use it. That’s a choice the artist had to make for themself. Or, have to live with if they can’t use copper for whatever reason.
When I teach wiring classes, I teach using copper. Most of the time, the students are surprised how easy the copper is to apply. They’d heard horror stories about how stiff copper is, and they were afraid to try it, or they had bought some copper from the hardware store that hadn’t been properly annealed.
I grant you, copper is more expensive. Just as a Mercedes Benz is more expensive than a Chevrolet. Both can take you from point A to point B.
At a show, however, old aluminum can really detract from the appearance of the bonsai. As aluminum wire ages, the paint peels and fades, and it turns silver. Copper turns brown, and becomes less noticeable.
Vance, I know you know all this. And I know you use aluminum because of the cost of copper. I’m writing this because we always have new people on BonsaiNut, and they need to know.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Point it out! I'm listening. The strict adherence to a lot of these things have created an atmosphere of superiority and a do it my way or go away you fool mind set. What I said above is still true. I have taken work shops from teachers who were concerned I was going to destroy their workshop authority because they knew who I was and what I believed.
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BonsaiDawg
Yamadori
What I agreed with is that there's no absolute rule about any of these things but that some things work better than others (ie copper wire on coniferous trees)
I agree with you that taking an attitude of superiority - my way or the highway mentality - on this board serves no purpose... It's an art form.. Not a hobby limited to a strict adherence to Japanese design principles that read according to Adair.
I agree with you that taking an attitude of superiority - my way or the highway mentality - on this board serves no purpose... It's an art form.. Not a hobby limited to a strict adherence to Japanese design principles that read according to Adair.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
I think location and on the spot technique adjustments is what is needed here.
Right now I have noticed increased lushness to the foiliage of my indoor trees by washing leaves twice a day at every feeding with a plain old humic acid /ro water solution.
Lots of the outcome here can be variable because of what is in the water and also ph of water.If water is really hard like over 2 or 300 ppm and if ph was at a certain level,you could have some undesirable and varied effects.
I do not know if I would like lots of minerals in my foliar washes.
Currently for about two weeks now I use the Ro water/ Humic acid leaf wash.I add about 1/16 tsp to a gallon and it brings ppm up to about 55ppm.
I actually need this because kelp in my soil drench twice a day will fry bottom leaves of my trees.Kelp only onec a week,no more.
Humic acid is a nice array of plant growth elements that brings the RO water up to the 55 ppm ,so as not to put pure water on the trees twice a day......It would probably draw minerals right out of leaves and make them weak.
I dislike NPK foliar feedings......seems a bit much for tree leaves...especially if in 18 hrs indoor light
So far so good with humic acid on leaves!
And honestly...the big,very old and wild collected trees and evergreens that Ryan has,I would want them growing....especially early season to get some energy stores going.
Me ,I would not mind the halt in growth on my tiny deciduous trees.I find it especially helpful,so after defoliating they are equal and photsynthesizing and not using all the carbs for growth......just sit and produce carbs so I can propogate these selections of Zelkova for future sales.
I actually read excessive Humic acid can also do that,but I do not use that much......or who knows maybe what I have been attributing to kelp cytokines interrupting auxin flow within the stems to force backbudding and arrest meristem growth could also be the humic acid I use at every watering too....arresting the stem elongation.
Honestly though I totally dig it.It is great to halt the growth on small bonsai.........makes them very energetic.
Right now I have noticed increased lushness to the foiliage of my indoor trees by washing leaves twice a day at every feeding with a plain old humic acid /ro water solution.
Lots of the outcome here can be variable because of what is in the water and also ph of water.If water is really hard like over 2 or 300 ppm and if ph was at a certain level,you could have some undesirable and varied effects.
I do not know if I would like lots of minerals in my foliar washes.
Currently for about two weeks now I use the Ro water/ Humic acid leaf wash.I add about 1/16 tsp to a gallon and it brings ppm up to about 55ppm.
I actually need this because kelp in my soil drench twice a day will fry bottom leaves of my trees.Kelp only onec a week,no more.
Humic acid is a nice array of plant growth elements that brings the RO water up to the 55 ppm ,so as not to put pure water on the trees twice a day......It would probably draw minerals right out of leaves and make them weak.
I dislike NPK foliar feedings......seems a bit much for tree leaves...especially if in 18 hrs indoor light
So far so good with humic acid on leaves!
And honestly...the big,very old and wild collected trees and evergreens that Ryan has,I would want them growing....especially early season to get some energy stores going.
Me ,I would not mind the halt in growth on my tiny deciduous trees.I find it especially helpful,so after defoliating they are equal and photsynthesizing and not using all the carbs for growth......just sit and produce carbs so I can propogate these selections of Zelkova for future sales.
I actually read excessive Humic acid can also do that,but I do not use that much......or who knows maybe what I have been attributing to kelp cytokines interrupting auxin flow within the stems to force backbudding and arrest meristem growth could also be the humic acid I use at every watering too....arresting the stem elongation.
Honestly though I totally dig it.It is great to halt the growth on small bonsai.........makes them very energetic.
Attachments
Mike Corazzi
Masterpiece
Read it here.
Is Foliar Feeding beneficial to Junipers?
The season is definitely switching to the 'on' position, for growth, here. I've been foliar feeding all of my subjects, on a schedule, and they seem to be responding quite well, however. It's hard for me to tell if my Junipers are responding at all. My Pines, Boxwood's, and Chinese elm are...
"In the Bonsai Empire courses, Bjorn Bjornholm recommends foliar feeding junipers with fish emulsion fertilizer. Supposedly junipers like to intake fertilizer through their foliage. There's also a lot out there saying foliar feeding doesn't do much. "
clem
Chumono
@Walter Pall what do you think of this tip ?
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I believe in fully watering EVERYTHING. I water my bonsai like one would water a normal garden - with a garden hose I water areas until they are wet. I cannot see why this should slow growth - the contrariy. Foliage loves to get wet as long as it dries eventually. But we sometimes have a full week of steady rain. After this the trees look better than ever. They love it. Prerequisite is that all trees are in very well draining substrate.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Adherence to these things have created superior bonsai.
BVF drops the mic!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I steped into that one. However this is not true in all cases. Some people don't grow some trees because they have determined these so called RULES, to be without compromise and there are trees out there that cannot be grown according to these rules at all.
I have seen the decline of many Junipers because the were clipped and not pinched to profile, I have seen a lot of Mugos go belly up because they were repotted in the Spring I have seen trees that were not misted to keep the foliage cool turn brown. I have seen trees suffer because they were planted in Akadama and had soil mixes that were non organic and broke down in a couple of years. Have I mentioned the watering issue?
Sigh...
Vance, as you know, the “it depends” rule trumps all other “rules”. The “rules” are guidelines that give folks a starting point upon which to build their own personal “rule book”.
I don’t mess with Mugos at all. They’re just not compatible with my climate. I don’t dispute anything you say about them, because I just don’t have any experience with them. When I tried to grow them 60 years ago, they all died. My JBP lived. Granted, I know far more about bonsai and tree keeping now than I did 59 years ago, but I just don’t need to mess with them when I can grow JBP and JWP.
Junipers is a whole different matter. You still don’t understand the “don’t pinch junipers” concept. It’s not about scissors vs fingers. It where to cut back to thin. And it’s NOT at the Silohette. The whole “don’t pinch” thing should really be titled “thin out your juniper canopy”.
Here’s a couple of pictures of a juniper properly cleaned and thinned:
Notice that you can see the woody stems holding up the foliage in the pads. Notice that there is no green foliage below the woody branches in the bottom of the pads. Notice that sun light can enter and reach the interior of the tree. Notice that there aren’t single large clumps if foliage, but there are many small individual tufts.
I was able to do this without a single “pinch” or cut or anything at the outer Silohette. All foliage removal was done by removing old interior foliage that wasn’t showing bright green new growth, and I did this with my fingers. Where foliage was too dense, it was cut back at a joint, brown stem area, with scissors, removing tufts of foliage about 3/4 inch in length.
About akadama: yes, it breaks down. When it does, repot. If akadama is too expensive, just use a 50/50 mix lava and pumice. Not all akadama is created equal. Some is harder than others. My akadama doesn’t break down to mush the way some people claim. But, i repot when the tree begins to drain slowly, so it doesn’t matter.
Meanwhile, I do hope you’re doing well, and are able to enjoy your trees. I hope you and your Mugos have a great spring and summer!
Vance, as you know, the “it depends” rule trumps all other “rules”. The “rules” are guidelines that give folks a starting point upon which to build their own personal “rule book”.
I don’t mess with Mugos at all. They’re just not compatible with my climate. I don’t dispute anything you say about them, because I just don’t have any experience with them. When I tried to grow them 60 years ago, they all died. My JBP lived. Granted, I know far more about bonsai and tree keeping now than I did 59 years ago, but I just don’t need to mess with them when I can grow JBP and JWP.
Junipers is a whole different matter. You still don’t understand the “don’t pinch junipers” concept. It’s not about scissors vs fingers. It where to cut back to thin. And it’s NOT at the Silohette. The whole “don’t pinch” thing should really be titled “thin out your juniper canopy”.
Here’s a couple of pictures of a juniper properly cleaned and thinned:
Notice that you can see the woody stems holding up the foliage in the pads. Notice that there is no green foliage below the woody branches in the bottom of the pads. Notice that sun light can enter and reach the interior of the tree. Notice that there aren’t single large clumps if foliage, but there are many small individual tufts.
I was able to do this without a single “pinch” or cut or anything at the outer Silohette. All foliage removal was done by removing old interior foliage that wasn’t showing bright green new growth, and I did this with my fingers. Where foliage was too dense, it was cut back at a joint, brown stem area, with scissors, removing tufts of foliage about 3/4 inch in length.
About akadama: yes, it breaks down. When it does, repot. If akadama is too expensive, just use a 50/50 mix lava and pumice. Not all akadama is created equal. Some is harder than others. My akadama doesn’t break down to mush the way some people claim. But, i repot when the tree begins to drain slowly, so it doesn’t matter.
Meanwhile, I do hope you’re doing well, and are able to enjoy your trees. I hope you and your Mugos have a great spring and summer!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The concept of not pinching Junipers does not stick with me. I see no reason for the concept.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
The other day I was thinking about how many junipers with brown tips is actually from tip blight.
I'd say more than 70%.
But the people swinging their need to be right, say it was from, whatever they did before theirs turned brown, pinch or cut.
So you can see the confusion as it is , and why we shouldn't fucking argue about it.
It's a circular argument to nowhere.
Love that.
But.
I say this is true 30%.
The other 70% are the people thinking they are creating superior trees just because they are using these things.
Sorce
I'd say more than 70%.
But the people swinging their need to be right, say it was from, whatever they did before theirs turned brown, pinch or cut.
So you can see the confusion as it is , and why we shouldn't fucking argue about it.
It's a circular argument to nowhere.
Love that.
But.
I say this is true 30%.
The other 70% are the people thinking they are creating superior trees just because they are using these things.
Sorce
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