Do Japanese bonsai "purists" consider chojubai bonsai?

I do also think they make excellent bonsai in their own right. Unfortunately for most of us they would be used as shohin or accents since any specimen of good size will be a college tuition if you can find one. Better odds in finding a purple unicorn. I am not an azalea fan but I love chojubai. I think in part because they are deciduous.
 
If you read Michael Hagedorn's blog, you'll see that he has a special place in his heart for chojubai. In this post to his blog, https://crataegus.com/2011/12/22/chojubai-quince-diminutive-jewels/, he discusses the history of chojubai in Japan, starting in the 1970's as scraggly accent pieces to the current crop of show stoppers. Perhaps tastes have changed or maybe it's just a fad, but fad or not, I'm glad they have moved onto the big stage, along with azaleas.
As I recall, you have a really good azalea, although I don't remember the cultivar.
 
Seriously, this is in a way a parallel to discussing "Fontaine 1917" by Marcel Duchamp. (I'll spare you the obligatory image of the urinal)

Bonsai is an art, Chojubai is bonsai because the artist says it is bonsai. Similarly the case when Chojubai is a kusamono because the artist says it is a kusamono.

As Cadillactaste pointed out, Chojubai has appeared at Kofukuten, exhibited as bonsai, and also exhibited as Kusamono. It would be easy to compile a long list of shows where Chojubai has appeared exhibited as bonsai, and an even longer list where it has been exhibited as Kusamono. It is what the artist exhibits it as, and the "jury" of art critics (bonsai judges) has accepted it as such. The number of shows (hence a similar number of judges (the art critics) have a long track record of accepting Chojubai under what ever category the artist presents it, bonsai or kusamono. So the bonsai community does accept Chojubai.

"Purists" - I suppose this would be a narrow subset of bonsai practitioners. I know from K Murata's book, Four Seasons of Bonsai, that Murata had Chojubai in his personal collection. I can not imagine a group of "Purists" not including Murata or his descendents who are running his nursery now, to be a credible group for dictating taste in Bonsai. Who is the artist that is now caring for the Japanese Imperial Collection? Does the Japanese Imperial Collection have a Chojubai? I don't know the answers, but if the Imperial collection does contain a Chojubai, I can not see how the "Purists" could exclude Chojubai from their "list of bonsai" and be viewed as a credible group.

I can easily imagine many a bonsai artist looking at a specific specimen of Chojubai, and judging an individual as "not bonsai", though it would be "not ready to be bonsai yet", rather than there was anything inherently wrong with the genetics of cultivar.

Chojubai is not a "perfect" species for bonsai. It is slow to trunk up, developing single trunk specimens is difficult. It is not as winter hardy as the "Toyo Nishiki" types. It is not the fastest growing of Chaenomeles cultivars. But many, many artists are willing to work around these short comings. I can see one being critical of its less than ideal traits. But in my book, and it seems most others, its strengths far outweigh its weaknesses as bonsai.

Chojubai has been around as a cultivar or variety for at least a century. In early books I recall Chojubai only being used as a kusamono, but for at least the last 50 years it has made more and more frequent appearances in the role of a bonsai tree, the focal point of a display. I'm sure this shift is because material available has been maturing. A young Chojubai, is just not ready to be the focal point, but get 30 to 50 years on it, and then wow, it can really hold its own against other high quality species.

I love Chaenomeles in general. I love Azaleas. Two things about Chaenomeles that make their numbers in my collection (about 7 cultivars) higher than the number of Azalea in my collection (4 cultivars). Many cultivars of Chaenomeles are fully winter hardy in zone 5b, need no added heat over my winters. And their habit of blooming more than once a year.

I do think Chojubai is over promoted sometimes, and the other really great cultivars of Chaenomeles are often neglected. There is a nice color pallet, from white to orange to red, and multicolored. There are peach, and pink colored forms too. Some are single and some are full doubles. The contorted Chaenomeles are really cool, the dwarfs like "Hime" and "Kan Toyo" are very similar in leaf size and flower size to Chojubai, they only lack the "bark" that Chojubai develops. Though who knows, does anyone have a 50 year old "Hime"? Wonder if the bark does get rough like Chojubai? So for those that can't get or can't afford the Chojubai of their dreams right now, check out some of these other cultivars, there are some nice gems in this group, and they can be quite modestly priced.
 
[The mood: ornery. The time: late at night]

Will we look back one day on the precious time we've had on this earth with abject horror that we wasted even a small portion of it on such meaningless questions?

Time better spent, certainly, on the poetry thread, reading Wallace Stevens:

Of Mere Being

The palm at the end of the mind,
Beyond the last thought, rises
In the bronze decor,

A gold-feathered bird
Sings in the palm, without human meaning,
Without human feeling, a foreign song.

You know then that it is not the reason
That makes us happy or unhappy.
The bird sings. Its feathers shine.

The palm stands on the edge of space.
The wind moves slowly in the branches.
The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down.
Alrighty then.
 
Yes they are considered bonsai if good enough quality, otherwise accent plants.
 
The appeal of Chojubai is its "quirkiness". It's SO different from everything else on the bench. Think of it as the cherry on top of the ice cream Sundae. Your conifers are the ice creme, your deciduous trees the chocolate syrup. And the Chojubai as the cherry on top!

Love this!

@Paradox
The BSD's already know the way to Machs house...
You want that one?

Just kidding....

This thread sho ain't dead!
Flowers sho is red!

Sorce
 
I can appreciate virtually anything on the "bonsai" spectrum. I do know that in the back of my mind I most appreciate (on a special, personal level) bonsai created from trees that would otherwise be full-sized trees if bonsai techniques were not applied (by nature, man or both, in that order). This applies to smaller tree species as well, but not to bushes, shrubs, herbs or dwarf cultivars. That is not to say I do not currently have many of the latter.

For example, I am looking into acquiring a JBP pre-bonsai to begin working with. While I am tempted by the dwarf cultivars, I really would like to get the regular species, for the reason mentioned above. I will probably still end up getting a cultivar though;)
 
I'm developing mine like bonsai; a nice little single trunk, and another, clump-style. Growing them in bonsai pots. Right now, they're too small to show, but I can see a progression from nice accent, up to shohin, to eventually part of a good 3-point display with a JBP in the early spring.
image.jpeg image.jpeg
 
I can appreciate virtually anything on the "bonsai" spectrum. I do know that in the back of my mind I most appreciate (on a special, personal level) bonsai created from trees that would otherwise be full-sized trees if bonsai techniques were not applied (by nature, man or both, in that order). This applies to smaller tree species as well, but not to bushes, shrubs, herbs or dwarf cultivars. That is not to say I do not currently have many of the latter.

For example, I am looking into acquiring a JBP pre-bonsai to begin working with. While I am tempted by the dwarf cultivars, I really would like to get the regular species, for the reason mentioned above. I will probably still end up getting a cultivar though;)
I would recommend a regular JBP rather than one of the "cultivars" as they would most likely be grafted. "Mikawa" JBP, is not really a cultivar. It's the name of an island in Japan, and the JBP that grow there have good characteristics for bonsai. So, many choose to use seed from Mikawa JBPs.

Needles length is easily controlled by decandling when the time is right to begin the refinement phase.
 
View attachment 103772 This is one of mine, in its peak this year, also trained as a single trunk.
I trying to make one as literati as well but im not sure if that will turrn out well..

I asked a Japanese friend who's something of a bonsai purist whether he considered that a bonsai. He said "no" - he thought it was more likely a '57 Chevy, or maybe a degree in economics.
 
Mine is just growing wild for a bit but it's a single trunk as well. It's got a water sprout that needs to come off. I may just layer it.
 
And likely to be a dime a dozen now that Cuba is back in business!!
So cheap for something not bad is not a bad deal.
Well, it was about 15dollar 1,5 years back, not sure if i would still buy it now anymore but i have it now and i kinda like it.
I wouldnt by a 57 chevy but i quite like the looks of it too. Dont care if there is a lot of them.
As for chojubai, most of the nicer ones are similar too, clumpstyle. Their natural growthpattern. I have seen one as literati which looked very cool, only have seen one like that, very old too. Other single trunk ones is often soso. Have seen several nice ones though
Actually i think they lend themselves very well too a clumpstyle windswept.
 
if you consider kusamono as part of bonsai, of course 'Chojubai' is bonsai. If you conider kusamono as distinctly different from bonsai, I suppose you might be able to argue 'chojubai' exhibited as the focal point of a display are really ''sanyasou'', the type of kusamono exhibited as the focal point of a display.

Regardless of the label you use, the skill and time required to turn out a ''chojubai' worthy of being the focal point of a display is just as demanding as creating a disply worthy JBP. So what ever label you use, does not diminish my appreciation of 'chojubai' at all.
 
if you consider kusamono as part of bonsai, of course 'Chojubai' is bonsai. If you conider kusamono as distinctly different from bonsai, I suppose you might be able to argue 'chojubai' exhibited as the focal point of a display are really ''sanyasou'', the type of kusamono exhibited as the focal point of a display.

Regardless of the label you use, the skill and time required to turn out a ''chojubai' worthy of being the focal point of a display is just as demanding as creating a disply worthy JBP. So what ever label you use, does not diminish my appreciation of 'chojubai' at all.


A Rosaceae by any other name???
 
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