Defoliate Chinese Elms

[AlainK]

Boon says the same thing. Exceptions are in the late fall when the leaves are changing color or very rarely in preparation for a show. But he does not practice regular full defoliation of any tree, including tropicals and elms. He does practice partial outer canopy defoliation as do many professionals including Ryan Neil, Bjorn Bjorholm, Boon Manakitivipart, Keiji Fujikawa, and Peter Tea (among others). I’m a believer - since I adopted that approach the speed my trees have developed has increased enormously.

Scott

We've got a saying here:

"Vérité en deçà des Pyrénées, erreur au delà" ("Truth beyond the Pyrenees, error beyond")

I'm not a "believer", nor am I superstitious or religious (all the same but different). I believe in what works in the real world.

One of my beech, mid-June:

July the same year:

November the same year:

April 2017: it did improve the tree somehow:

And "Fagus sylvatica" has a reputation for being not responsive to leaf-cutting, I should say "removing".

Never defoliate?... Ah, OK, I understand. If that's your religion, pray for me:
"Desperate Times Call for the Saint of Desperate Cases"

But for all those who live between USDA zone 7-8, and live in the real world, defoliating deciduous trees is not only possible, but it's a must!

 

[just.wing.it]

@AZbonsai Here is what Ryan Neil said in a video i watched the other day....

Thanks for posting that one...hadn't seen it before.

 

[just.wing.it]

We've got a saying here:

"Vérité en deçà des Pyrénées, erreur au delà" ("Truth beyond the Pyrenees, error beyond")

I'm not a "believer", nor am I superstitious or religious (all the same but different). I believe in what works in the real world.

One of my beech, mid-June:

July the same year:

November the same year:

April 2017: it did improve the tree somehow:

And "Fagus sylvatica" has a reputation for being not responsive to leaf-cutting, I should say "removing".

Bull-, or cow-, or buffalo-, or horse- "dropping" here at least.

But for all those who live between USDA zone 7-8, defoliating deciduous trees (when relevant) is not only possible, but it's a must!

That last picture, it's looking pretty nice Alain, I must say.
Though I'm a sucker for beeches!

 

[0soyoung]

I'm not a "believer", nor am I superstitious or religious (all the same but different). I believe in what works in the real world.

Better yet is to understand why it works (or doesn't), IMHO.

 

[milehigh_7]

We've got a saying here:

"Vérité en deçà des Pyrénées, erreur au delà" ("Truth beyond the Pyrenees, error beyond")

This may hit the nail on the head so to speak. All of the artists mentioned that say no are either trained in Japan or have been trained by those trained in Japan. While respected (dare I say even worshipped) worldwide, it would not be the first time they were not correct in art and/or horticulture. It's entirely possible they say no strictly because the master they apprenticed with said no.

I'll give you an exception. Defoliating bougainvilleas when root work / repot is done is essential. You do these repots during the very hottest part of the year for best results and the last thing the tree needs is to try and support leaves. I've done it both ways and they either die or limp along if you don't defoliate. If you do, they will be covered with new growth in a week.

 

[milehigh_7]

Better yet is to understand why it works (or doesn't), IMHO.

^^^this

 

[AlainK]

Better yet is to understand why it works (or doesn't)

Exactly.

Beware of false prohets, etc. and the like : common sense is the best tool human beings have.

 

[0soyoung]

Exactly.

Beware of false prohets, etc. and the like : common sense is the best tool human beings have.

Unfortunately, 'common sense' isn't so common.
But, we are of like minds in this regard.

 

[petegreg]

If a leaf has turned colour in the fall, that is a sign that photosynthesis has stopped. Defoliation at this time does not harm the tree if done properly...

But is this a defoliation in the right meaning of the word? I'd say it's just a cleaning, helping the tree to drop foliage to keep everything clean.

 

[AlainK]

I'll give you an exception. Defoliating bougainvilleas when (...)

Of course!

We (I) don't grow bougainvilleas here.

It all depends on where you grow trees, and what species can, not "survive", but thrive where you are.

One thousand and a few hudred kilometres from where I live, there are bougainvilleas (28th October 2016):

 

[AlainK]

But is this a defoliation in the right meaning of the word? I'd say it's just a cleaning, helping the tree to drop foliage to keep everything clean.

"Stricto sensu", defoliating means removing all the leaves.

 

[crust]

Ryan is wrong.

My understanding is Ryan usually does not promote "full" defoliation of trees but instead does partial defoliation. His methods of partial defoliation are varied but I don't think he ever strips them bare as a refinement technique--he isn't a tropical guy though and his style is to usually only teach what he has experience with.

 

[markyscott]

We've got a saying here:

"Vérité en deçà des Pyrénées, erreur au delà" ("Truth beyond the Pyrenees, error beyond")

I'm not a "believer", nor am I superstitious or religious (all the same but different). I believe in what works in the real world.

One of my beech, mid-June:

July the same year:

November the same year:

April 2017: it did improve the tree somehow:

And "Fagus sylvatica" has a reputation for being not responsive to leaf-cutting, I should say "removing".

Never defoliate?... Ah, OK, I understand. If that's your religion, pray for me:
"Desperate Times Call for the Saint of Desperate Cases"

But for all those who live between USDA zone 7-8, and live in the real world, defoliating deciduous trees is not only possible, but it's a must!

If you’re happy with how this tree has responded to defoliation and it’s progress, then that’s all that counts and I’m happy for you.

Scott

 

[River's Edge]

But is this a defoliation in the right meaning of the word? I'd say it's just a cleaning, helping the tree to drop foliage to keep everything clean.

Could very well be. I noticed the leaves in the picture were green so i thought more information may be helpful.

 

[Adair M]

We've got a saying here:

"Vérité en deçà des Pyrénées, erreur au delà" ("Truth beyond the Pyrenees, error beyond")

I'm not a "believer", nor am I superstitious or religious (all the same but different). I believe in what works in the real world.

One of my beech, mid-June:

July the same year:

November the same year:

April 2017: it did improve the tree somehow:

And "Fagus sylvatica" has a reputation for being not responsive to leaf-cutting, I should say "removing".

Never defoliate?... Ah, OK, I understand. If that's your religion, pray for me:
"Desperate Times Call for the Saint of Desperate Cases"

But for all those who live between USDA zone 7-8, and live in the real world, defoliating deciduous trees is not only possible, but it's a must!

I would not have defoliated the small twigs that are close to the trunk. It’s easy for the tree to just bypass them when it rejuvenates. If you keep those leaves, those weak inside twigs get stronger.

What I see happening is the interior of the tree is getting bare, while the circumference is getting denser. Which will further block the light from the interior, weakening the interior twigs even more.

 

[AlainK]

Hi Scott,

I checked your location:
Houston, TX

I often write "here" in my posts, but didn't realize you, and AZbonsai live in a semi-tropical dry, hot place. Not Japan, not France, not Germany;

But "never defoliate a tree" is the kind of "dogma" that will only apply in a precise location with a precise weather environment for specific species, don't you think so?...

Here, we've got this saying: "everything ends with (in) a song ("Tout finit en chanson").

I don't know if the song is relevant to the discussion, but that's what I'm listening to at the moment

Er...
...
...
...

(If I had a hammer...) (TCHONC!)

 

[milehigh_7]

This is an incredibly civil conversation! I am impressed! Carry on peeps, carry on!

 

[markyscott]

... All of the artists mentioned that say no are either trained in Japan or have been trained by those trained in Japan. While respected (dare I say even worshipped) worldwide, it would not be the first time they were not correct in art and/or horticulture. It's entirely possible they say no strictly because the master they apprenticed with said no....

When the master says no and has trees that look like this, I listen.

Japanese beech grown by Suzuki.

Scott

 

[milehigh_7]

When the master says no and has trees that look like this, I listen.
View attachment 173170
Japanese beech grown by Suzuki.

Scott

Fair point! However, as a scientist, you should acknowledge that even this evidence is anecdotal. We don't know (or has not been posted yet in this thread) why or why not from a biological standpoint.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Of course!

We (I) don't grow bougainvilleas here.

It all depends on where you grow trees, and what species can, not "survive", but thrive where you are.

One thousand and a few hudred kilometres from where I live, there are bougainvilleas (28th October 2016):

View attachment 173160

Portugal? I'm guessing by the sidewalk bricks