Deciduous are harder than Conifers... discuss

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I approach both types with great care and then fuck them over real good equally.
I grew up caring for deciduous trees and they have a more easy-to-care-for nature. Or maybe that's just me.
I like conifers more, because I think they exhibit more character and they're more of a challenge.
But the girlfriend loves flowering and deciduous and can't stop buying them.

 

[0soyoung]

Deciduous wood is, generally speaking, harder than that of conifers.


I have a number of azaleas/rhododendrons that please me. Aside from those, I have, maybe, six trees that are 'kinda getting there' - five are conifers, one is deciduous. Deciduous had a head start in my adventures.

The 'advantage' of deciduous is that one can back up and start over (I continue to do so) - just cut it or chop it.
With conifers, if you didn't put some movement in the trunk when it was young, fuggit about it, you're stuck. It is then nothing but a big 'design challenge' (I have many).

Long, spindly branches on conifers are fun - wire, bend/twist and make them into shorter ones - branches often can be made to fit the design. Long, spindly branches on deciduous cannot - gotta cut 'em and grow 'em to make them shorter and to produce taper which, again, takes several years!

Thread grafting is pretty easy on deciduous - extremely difficult (impossible?) to do with nearly all conifers. Approach grafting can be done on either. Honestly, grafting is a bitch! Doesn't matter which type of tree. WTF, so simple and yet so impossible!

Deciduous trees more vigorously grow (or re-grow) roots. Hence, conifers are 'difficult to layer' and more 'sensitive' to root pruning. Deciduous are more tolerant of watering errors.

Deciduous respond more quickly to most treatments - they will tell you right away that they are dead. Conifers are slow to offer even a clue. So, conifers are 'more difficult' to grow. It is easier to learn how with deciduous.


Is it easier to eat an orange or an apple?

 

[markyscott]

Well, my experience from shows is that there are quite a few very good conifers floating around - some of which are on the path to eventually stand side by side with some of the best in Europe or Japan. But when it comes to deciduous trees, the number of really good ones in the US is tiny. So perhaps we need to understand if the question is related to whether or not they are easy to keep alive in a pot or whether they are easy to develop into a well ramified and fully developed tree. The answers might be different.

S

 

[JudyB]

D trees take longer if you do them right. I'm completely D tree now, but am going to have to get a few conifers again just to have a mix for the shohin displays. I just like them better, they have seasons, and look different in each one. Plus there is more to keep you busy with them over the whole of the year. (I like that part, could be a con for others.)

I live in a hot humid area, but don't have very many fungal issues. I do use a systemic in the spring that has a fungicide property. I also have lots of good air circulation.

 

[GrimLore]

Up to the owner...

I can easily spend 8 - 10 hours a week on any plant I like to work with. If I like a plant I have no experience with I will get 3 - 5 smaller inexpensive and learn to grow them at least for 2 years, time well spent.

I am pretty diversified at this point BUT I find myself more interested in Fruit trees, Subs like Serrisa, Desert types, and Azalea... Could and often do spend a lot more time on them. Not certain why but hey a lot of people drink beer I consider rank but they think the same of what I drink

Do what makes you happy. If it dies buy a few small inexpensive and figure it out - no set rules, just you and observation.

Grimmy

 

[Nybonsai12]

But when it comes to deciduous trees, the number of really good ones in the US is tiny. So perhaps we need to understand if the question is related to whether or not they are easy to keep alive in a pot or whether they are easy to develop into a well ramified and fully developed tree. The answers might be different.
S

I think not as many people are working with large deciduous at least in part because of how long it takes to develop them.

My own personal struggles with tree health aside, a well ramified and full developed deciduous is part of what I think makes them much harder. It takes longer to get there. If I remember correctly the big conifers in the Mirai show didn't have decades of time between mountainside and show ready... Not that the transformations are not impressive, just quicker to get there.

 

[markyscott]

a well ramified and full developed deciduous is part of what I think makes them much harder. It takes longer to get there.

I agree 100%.

 

[LanceMac10]

Really depends on the material. Developing trunks? Bought a trunk, need branches....I think both present unique challenges. Try building a fat trunk on a conifer while trying to keep some low, usable branching. That sort of thing is vastly different for deciduous vs. conifer...…


What made you think of this, @Nybonsai12 ?

 

[Velodog2]

Conifers are harder. Here’s why: They respond much more slowly.

If a deciduous tree gets dry the leaves droop. If it’s caught quick the leaves recover, if not they will typically put out new ones if not too much damage is done. At least you know where you stand.

If a conifer dries out, or is otherwise mismanaged it may take days or weeks to show distress. Often once a conifer shows a problem, the funeral pyre should be planned because it’s probably been suffering for some time and is a dead tree walking, as it were. Someone cited a study here showing Scots pine canopies in forests didn’t display symptoms of stress until two years after an event. How do you manage that?

Also, what deciduous tree requires as extensive and detailed knowledge of techniques to get decent results as a JBP?

 

[Nybonsai12]

What made you think of this, @Nybonsai12 ?

Looking at my struggling deciduous the past two seasons with little to no progress being made while at the same time watching the majority of my conifers do reasonably well. From a deciduous perspective it's like the last two seasons have been a complete waste of time with nothing gained except maybe some girth on a few in the ground and even those have had branches chewed back by animals in early spring slowing things down. It's disheartening to say the least because i really do love and appreciate deciduous...

 

[erb.75]

D trees take longer if you do them right. I'm completely D tree now, but am going to have to get a few conifers again just to have a mix for the shohin displays. I just like them better, they have seasons, and look different in each one. Plus there is more to keep you busy with them over the whole of the year. (I like that part, could be a con for others.)

I live in a hot humid area, but don't have very many fungal issues. I do use a systemic in the spring that has a fungicide property. I also have lots of good air circulation.

my thoughts exactly! the only thing I'd add is that conifers have a special appeal in literati design for me (although I'm doing literati with D trees too)

 

[Bananaman]

This is a very good question. The answer is an enigma wrapped in a riddle. It is a catch 22. There is no correct answer and I speak from having a collection nearly split 50/50 deciduous vs conifer. They are both hard to do at a high level. Not that hard to do at a beginner level or if you live in an apartment with no room or live with your parents, or you have kids that require school clothes. A wife that is not understanding, or you just don't have a very large budget for things like little trees. The answers are commensurate with your talent level, your access, and your means.

Can you work over each species properly and have the skills to work them at a high level?
Do you have the access to quality material or are you growing your own or buying gallon material at the local nursery?
Do you have the means, the cash, when you see that masterpiece chunk of wood can you fork out what it takes to obtain it?

There is nothing particularly hard about either species that some talent, availability of good material and the cash to procure it can't fix.

TALENT, ACCESS, AND MEANS with all three there is nothing hard about bonsai. Remove any one of those and it gets harder, remove two of them and bonsai is really hard.


EDIT: I am assuming most here wish to do bonsai on a high level. Why do it on a low level???

 

[0soyoung]

EDIT: I am assuming most here wish to do bonsai on a high level. Why do it on a low level???

Well, there is apparently is an option of just doing while high.
How many pix are there of trees with beer or whisky, bottles, and pot threads?

But, I agree with your point.

 

[LanceMac10]

Well, there is apparently is an option of just doing while high.
How many pix are there of trees with beer or whisky, bottles, and pot threads?

But, I agree with your point.

get this man a Guinness on my tab, please.....back in 420, gotta' catch a skunk. Cuz I'm up for work at 430!!!

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Well, there is apparently is an option of just doing while high.
How many pix are there of trees with beer or whisky, bottles, and pot threads?

But, I agree with your point.

Interesting ?

 

[carino]

I would like to know the type of pines that are mentioned. In Central Texas, there are Loblolly pines which I have a few seedlings but I have never attempted to work them into bonsai. I do have Bald Cypress seedlings in the ground that I plan to dig up (2 inch trunks) in the fall. I only have about 30 arakawa maple seedlings that were underneath the mother tree. I dug them up last year and they are doing fine. I'm new to this and as a new member, I hope to learn about taking care of my young seedlings. "Life is too important to take seriously"

 

[Littlejoe919]

I have maples and pines, mostly. I've killed both. My first love was maples, but I struggle with them. Right now I have 2 that I just hope hold their leaves long enough to get winter storage built up. My biggest struggle is fungus. I need to figure out how to get ahead of it. I can kill a juniper by looking at it wrong, but pines seem to like my treatment of them. What are broadleaf evergreens considered? I haven't killed one of them yet. I vote conifer.

 

[carino]

I have maples and pines, mostly. I've killed both. My first love was maples, but I struggle with them. Right now I have 2 that I just hope hold their leaves long enough to get winter storage built up. My biggest struggle is fungus. I need to figure out how to get ahead of it. I can kill a juniper by looking at it wrong, but pines seem to like my treatment of them. What are broadleaf evergreens considered? I haven't killed one of them yet. I vote conifer.

I have killed a couple of my maples and I know why. I watered them too much and the soil was too heavy. Most of my other maples have the same soil so I used a chop stick and poked the soil around the trunk and loosened the dirt. It has been three days and I still have not watered them. As a result, they seem to be doing better. It was difficult for me not to provide water since it has been 3 days but I will hold off until I see a change. All of them receive indirect sunshine and they are in a shelter place.

I have not problem with fungus but I hear that overwatering is part of the problem. Using soil that does not drain properly can lead to fungus infection. I sanitize my tools with alcohol before I work on my maples. Once your tree is infected, it spreads to other plants (according to what I read) Some say using Hydrogen Peroxide can treat or prevent fungus. Hope you don't give up on your efforts to grow maples. As for broadleaf evergreens, I really don't know.

 

[MichaelS]

A good deciduous tree is just as easy as an average conifer and a good conifer is more difficult that a good deciduous.

 

[miker]

I always feel like I am walking on egg shells with pines, especially stuff like JWP.